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2821

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 10:15

#1
The dealing machine had some fun with a few hands.

Does anyone open 4?


"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 10:43

I would open it Namyats (or my Notyats) if played: otherwise I would risk interference (of opponents or TD) in 2C 2D; 3H... (or 2C 2H; P)
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#3 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 10:56

If I have a convention (e.g. Namyats), I would use it to indicate a 4H bid.

Absent a convention, I open 4H.
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 11:17

I don't have namyats, notyats or any other convention. I did have namyats on my card years ago, never understood it, never used it.
I'm loathe to use up all that bidding room .
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#5 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 11:46

I don't like pre-empting with an outside ace so I would open 1 and take the hit if opps blast to a making spade game.
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#6 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 14:12

I open 4 if we're playing Namyats and 1 otherwise.
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#7 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 14:57

4H will sometimes be the winning call. But I think we have too much for it n

So 1H for me, not playing Namyats or so.

2C (strong, not GF though) followed by 4H (a 4H opening with a side ace) is played by some but it works only if opps don’t interfere…
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#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 15:31

View Postjillybean, on 2023-November-12, 11:17, said:

I don't have namyats, notyats or any other convention. I did have namyats on my card years ago, never understood it, never used it.
I'm loathe to use up all that bidding room .


The bid that uses up all the room is 4M... and it makes sense to leave it to a weak bid that partner can comfortably pass with a couple of aces.
The scope of Namyats or similar is to redefine 4M as a genuine barrage, in particular 4 which can now be very little.
The Namyats bid itself uses up a bit less room, leaving just enough to exchange an information (or two in Notyats) before the 4M decision yet still making it more difficult for the opponents to compete precisely in the other major.

Bidding 4 with this hand is particularly bad as it strongly invites the opponents to bid 4 which here we have no good reason to imagine will not make.
Bidding 1 is a bit of a handwave as partner cannot have fit and it gives opponents a motorway to locate the right level of spades.
Bidding 2 is not terrible if you have agreements that allow you to discuss controls and your regulations allow it.
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#9 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-November-12, 19:12



+690
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#10 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 00:19

Hi,

in 1st and 2nd no, you need something from p to make 4H,
and there maybe more, 4H kills the auction, in 3rd or 4th
4H is clear cut.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: 3S by partner is overbidding, it is GF, I am also
wondering why West with a double fit, does not bid 5C.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#11 User is online   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 01:20

View Postjillybean, on 2023-November-12, 10:15, said:

#1
The dealing machine had some fun with a few hands.

Does anyone open 4?




Possibly
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#12 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 02:49

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2023-November-13, 00:19, said:

PS: 3S by partner is overbidding, it is GF

It is a GF playing natural but not if playing UvU. We are not given information as to what the agreed methods are.
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#13 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 03:32

View Postakwoo, on 2023-November-12, 14:12, said:

I open 4 if we're playing Namyats and 1 otherwise.

It looks too light for 4 and i would be accepting the slam try with South's hand and 2 keycards
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#14 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 06:30

View Postmw64ahw, on 2023-November-13, 03:32, said:

It looks too light for 4 and i would be accepting the slam try with South's hand and 2 keycards
I hope not, even the traditional Namyats didn't promise 10 tricks in hand. Your desire to punish partner will end up costing quite a bit.
In addition to the above I don't see the point in waiting for such a fat hand before opening 4. Not only can you gain a lot by bidding strong hands slowly (even the dreaded strong 2 patterns out lower than the 4 opening), also this requirement kills the frequency of the agreement. If you do wish to have a stronger way to artificially bid 4M I think it makes a lot more sense to reserve this to shapely hands in the 11-15 HCP range. No particular suit requirement, just 'a hand that wants to bid 4M solo and has too much defence for a preemptive opening'. You can put this in 4m, 1M-then-4M or even 3NT (my personal favourite). As this thread shows that hand type can be a problem otherwise, especially if we have hearts and there is a significant fear of having to make our rebid over their 4.

Absent these gadgets, as the thread stipulated, I lean towards opening 4. I used to bid 1M-then-4M with these hands and most of the time it worked well, but so does opening 4M. There's really not much of a concern of missing slam - people are allowed to theorise about perfect minima opposite all day, at the table partner seems to always have something else. The competitive considerations dwarf the slam concerns at any form of scoring. My main concern would be that I don't like having to pass out their 4 if they bid it, partner may well have been able to penalise them on a slower auction. In return we gain all the times the opponents fail to find the perfect bids, or slip up on defence.

View Postpescetom, on 2023-November-12, 15:31, said:

Bidding 4 with this hand is particularly bad as it strongly invites the opponents to bid 4 which here we have no good reason to imagine will not make.
Bidding 1 is a bit of a handwave as partner cannot have fit and it gives opponents a motorway to locate the right level of spades.
Bidding 2 is not terrible if you have agreements that allow you to discuss controls and your regulations allow it.
I think this is exactly backwards.
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#15 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 08:01

View PostDavidKok, on 2023-November-13, 06:30, said:

I hope not, even the traditional Namyats didn't promise 10 tricks in hand. Your desire to punish partner will end up costing quite a bit.

I seem to remember we have a slightly different approach to Namyats, but neither of us expects 10 tricks to be promised

Bridgebum covers it reasonably well Namyats Bridge Convention - Bidding and Responses (bridgebum.com), but i don't quite understand your comment about wanting to punish partner especially since you appear to prefer 4 to 4
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#16 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 09:35

View Postmw64ahw, on 2023-November-13, 08:01, said:

I seem to remember we have a slightly different approach to Namyats, but neither of us expects 10 tricks to be promised

Bridgebum covers it reasonably well Namyats Bridge Convention - Bidding and Responses (bridgebum.com), but i don't quite understand your comment about wanting to punish partner especially since you appear to prefer 4 to 4


4 7+ strong hearts and 8-9 tricks. Example: AJ KQJT9432 KQ 3
4 7+ strong spades and 8-9 tricks. Example: AKQT876 K5 A2 63

Sorry, I do not understand why you would want to open these hands at the 4 level. 4/4
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#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 09:56

Playing Precision, this is a 1 opener IMO.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#18 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 09:56

View Postjillybean, on 2023-November-13, 09:35, said:

4 7+ strong hearts and 8-9 tricks. Example: AJ KQJT9432 KQ 3
4 7+ strong spades and 8-9 tricks. Example: AKQT876 K5 A2 63

Sorry, I do not understand why you would want to open these hands at the 4 level. 4/4

I guess this depends how you describe these types of hands if you open 1M. For me the 4/4 are fairly precise enabling responder a simple choice to play in game or try for the slam.
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 09:59

View Postmw64ahw, on 2023-November-13, 09:56, said:

I guess this depends how you describe these types of hands if you open 1M. For me the 4/4 are fairly precise enabling responder a simple choice to play in game or try for the slam.

I understand that but now you have lost all the room to explore for slam.
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#20 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-November-13, 10:06

View Postjillybean, on 2023-November-13, 09:59, said:

I understand that but now you have lost all the room to explore for slam.

Typically if responder is interested in slam then they bid 4m+1 and you take it from there.
I play that 4m+1 denies a control in that suit, but interested in a slam, 4M is a sign-off and 4M+1 upwards is Kickbo so no issue with stopping in 5M with 2 quick losers.



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