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Bidding Problem How do you continue with strong 54 x x hands

#1 User is offline   ErnieT 

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Posted 2023-September-17, 12:10

In a recent team game I held: AK843 QJ85 Q AQ2 with no one Vul. I opened 1 spade and partner bid 1NT and I rebid 2 hearts and partner retreated to 2 spades. How do you continue? After the event was over there was a long discussion with no agreement. Any insight would be appreciated..
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#2 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-September-17, 12:35

Hi Ernie

I agree 100% with 2H. Against us, opener rebid 3H over 1N, propelling her side into a hopeless 3N, down 4! The cards lay poorly so 3N wasn’t quite as bad as the score indicated, plus we defended accurately and declarer played all out to make) but 3H was, imo, a significant overbid on such soft values

As for what to do after you got a preference to 2S, obviously you shouldn’t pass…many 7-9 counts offer a play for game. At imps, I think passing is far too conservative but at mps you might well get a good result from staying low on an apparent misfit.

My strong preference is for 2N. Yes, that suggests 5=4=2=2 but your stiff is the queen, which is usually better than say xx.


Meanwhile, you’ve shown 17-18 hcp (players who think most 18 counts are worth a jumpshift get a lot of well-deserved minus scores….some 18 counts are worth a gf, but this one isn’t even close)
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#3 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-September-17, 14:43

I agree with 2H (of course) but I struggle to see what is wrong with a natural 3C now, even at MP?
I have got my hand off my chest and if partner thinks 3NT is doomed, she has three reasonable choices.
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-September-17, 15:53

View Postpescetom, on 2023-September-17, 14:43, said:

I agree with 2H (of course) but I struggle to see what is wrong with a natural 3C now, even at MP?
I have got my hand off my chest and if partner thinks 3NT is doomed, she has three reasonable choices.

3C would be my second choice, and my first if I had, say, AKxxx KJ10x x AQx

My worries are: 1. The odds are that partner has fewer than 5 clubs, and 3C on a 4-3 is quite likely worse than 2N if he’s passing our bid. 2. If he does pass or even if he bids 3N, we’ve pinpointed our shape…probably not a big deal given our diamond card. 3. This is not a hand, imo, where we want to look for 5C, unless partner can bid clubs over 2N. Compare that to my example of AKxxx KJ10x x AQx, where if partner wants to go to 5C, I’m happy.

But I think it close, despite my strong preference for 2N.
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#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2023-September-17, 23:55

Hi,

there is a reason some peoble play conventions like Gazilli, and the given hand is an example, why they do it,
but not everyone does, and there are reasons too.

Without add. agreements, I would go 2H followed by 3C, but MikeH is a better player, so take this vote the way you want.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2023-September-18, 02:23

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2023-September-17, 23:55, said:

there is a reason some peoble play conventions like Gazilli, and the given hand is an example, why they do it,
but not everyone does, and there are reasons too.

I play Gazzilli in my regular partnership: it is not a panacea and this hand is an example.

If responder is too weak to give a positive, normally 8+, then you will likely miss all 4-4 heart fits and some 4-5 heart fits and play in the wrong partscore.

It will help if partner has 8+ and gives you more space and a fair chance of finding the better contract.
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I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
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#7 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-September-18, 06:18

If you play a transfer approach over 1-1NT you get to show both the 17+GI/GF hands and the weaker ones with , so
1-1NT
--2 4+ or GI/GF with
--2 6+ or GI/GF with
--2 5+4+ splinter - hands with 2/3 go via 2
vs Gazzilli you don't get to play in 2, but then 2NT may score better when GI, but on the flip side you can find the fits
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#8 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2023-September-19, 10:49

A lot of this is going to depend on your *other* agreements. Can 1NT bidder ever hold 3 spades here? Frequently? What's the point count?
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#9 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-September-19, 11:11

If referring to this transfer approach 1NT is passable and never contains 3+, the 1NT opening is any 15-17 balanced including 5..

1-2 is either a constructive+ raise or GI with 5 and 1-2 is preemptive.. Opener completes the transfer or bids on with a hand strong enough for 3 opposite a 3-card constructive raise.
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-September-19, 11:15

Btw, another non-trivial reason for 2N, rather than 3C, is that 3C endplays partner should he hold something like xx xxx Kxxxx Kxx

While 2N isn’t anyone’s favourite contract, opposite that, it’s surely better than wherever you want to end up after 3C
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-September-19, 11:57

View Postmikeh, on 2023-September-19, 11:15, said:

Btw, another non-trivial reason for 2N, rather than 3C, is that 3C endplays partner should he hold something like xx xxx Kxxxx Kxx

While 2N isn’t anyone’s favourite contract, opposite that, it’s surely better than wherever you want to end up after 3C


And what does he do after 2N with xx, K10, xxxx, KJ10xx, hopeless in 3N has chances in clubs, isn't 3 over 2N a pile with 2 spades and 6 clubs ?
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-September-19, 14:47

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-September-19, 11:57, said:

And what does he do after 2N with xx, K10, xxxx, KJ10xx, hopeless in 3N has chances in clubs, isn't 3 over 2N a pile with 2 spades and 6 clubs ?

Valid points and I certainly didn’t mean to argue that 2N is ‘perfect’.

But…..and I admit to a systemic edge in my main partnerships…..we play that in uncontested auctions leading to an invitational 2N, after a suit opening at the one level, transfers apply over the 2N.

I hadn’t mentioned this earlier because I suspect that few partnerships, other than some expert established ones, have that level of detail in systemic auctions.

With your example, responder has (just) enough to accept the game invite at imps, and maybe at mps as well. So he’d bid 3S….showing interest in clubs but willing to play 3N otherwise. Opener has an easy 5C

Flip the minors, and he bids 3C, showing diamonds. On the actual opening hand, 3N isn’t very good but we’ve all been in and made worse.

With worse hands, including hands with clubs, he passes 2N and we miss a club partial, btw, I don’t think much of your example, since 2N is not exactly down off the top. If diamonds are 4=4, it’s cold…yes, that’s no consolation for missing 5C.

Finally, if you were to run a simulation, I’d expect that the odds are high that responder is either equal in both minors or has longer diamonds. Since we will rarely want to play 3N opposite diamond length unless responder has a maximum, 2N seems best suited to accomplish that.
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-September-20, 01:51

View Postmikeh, on 2023-September-19, 14:47, said:

Valid points and I certainly didn’t mean to argue that 2N is ‘perfect’.

But…..and I admit to a systemic edge in my main partnerships…..we play that in uncontested auctions leading to an invitational 2N, after a suit opening at the one level, transfers apply over the 2N.

I hadn’t mentioned this earlier because I suspect that few partnerships, other than some expert established ones, have that level of detail in systemic auctions.



Interesting idea that was new to me, we have some odd invitational 2N sequences where we probably wouldn't want to apply it after our non GF inverted minors where 3 is needed as a signoff declining the invite, but other than that it seems sensible.
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