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Three LAs Club Game

#1 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2023-September-06, 17:17


Matchpoints. EW had a top on this board, when East led the ace of clubs and another club and declarer had to go one off. Scores varied wildly but usually East-West bid 6D* over 5H.

Double of 2D showed "values" and pass over 5H was slow, agreed. South claimed that the double was suggested by the break in tempo. How do you rule? If you disallow the double, what do you substitute?
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#2 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2023-September-06, 17:40

I'm really struggling to find a LA to double.
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#3 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2023-September-07, 02:16

View Postsfi, on 2023-September-06, 17:40, said:

I'm really struggling to find a LA to double.

From the OP: “usually East-West bid 6D* over 5H”. That strongly suggests that 6 is a LA, but this seems a case that a poll might be helpful.
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#4 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2023-September-07, 03:02

View Postsanst, on 2023-September-07, 02:16, said:

From the OP: “usually East-West bid 6D* over 5H”. That strongly suggests that 6 is a LA, but this seems a case that a poll might be helpful.

I would have thought it strongly suggested the auction was different at other tables, but you're right that a poll would be useful.
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#5 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2023-September-07, 04:07

For what it is worth two pairs saved over 6H in 7D! A regular partner of mine who did not play, said "the only choice is between pass and 6D. Double is not in the ballpark".

I don't have the other auctions but agree a poll is right.
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#6 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2023-September-07, 04:11

View Postlamford, on 2023-September-06, 17:17, said:


Matchpoints. EW had a top on this board, when East led the ace of clubs and another club and declarer had to go one off. Scores varied wildly but usually East-West bid 6D* over 5H.

Double of 2D showed "values" and pass over 5H was slow, agreed. South claimed that the double was suggested by the break in tempo. How do you rule? If you disallow the double, what do you substitute?

If the inferences from the auction reflect the holdings E has shown excellent values and NS (S) have shown powerful values with zero D losers. To the point of view of W 5H probably (the neg X) is beyond the DD capacity of the cards but has play (because of D ?void). But can the defense find such DD line? That demonstrably suggests that W's pause was reflecting on the benefits of sacrificing.
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#7 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2023-September-07, 04:24

View Postlamford, on 2023-September-07, 04:07, said:

For what it is worth two pairs saved over 6H in 7D! A regular partner of mine who did not play, said "the only choice is between pass and 6D. Double is not in the ballpark".

Maybe I'm misreading this, but my partner has shown defensive values (probably in the blacks) but no fit and I've shown an opening hand with long diamonds worth playing at the five-level. What am I missing that means I would not show that I also have some defence?

Pass is worth consideration, but it doesn't look right to me with a side ace and partner's announced values. If they can make this hand on a crossruff, more power to them. But 6D is too unilateral for my taste - I prefer to trust partner's judgment when I've given them good information.

And for what it's worth, I think the CA is a standout lead. It's unlikely to be ruffed and gives us a fair chance to find the right continuation.
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#8 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2023-September-07, 08:15

View Postsfi, on 2023-September-07, 04:24, said:

Maybe I'm misreading this, but my partner has shown defensive values (probably in the blacks) but no fit and I've shown an opening hand with long diamonds worth playing at the five-level. What am I missing that means I would not show that I also have some defence?

It is clearly a 30-point pack, and eight of your 12 points are in diamonds. Partner's double did not deny three diamonds, as we can see. Partner's break of tempo tells you that he was thinking of either doubling 5H or bidding 6D. The fact that he did not double 5H suggests that this is making, as you have one defensive trick, the ace of clubs, and he would double with two. But as you say, we should poll, and I will do that to the kings and queens at my club, the same rank approximately as East.
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#9 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2023-September-07, 10:43

View Postlamford, on 2023-September-07, 08:15, said:

Partner's break of tempo tells you that he was thinking of either doubling 5H or bidding 6D. The fact that he did not double 5H suggests that this is making, as you have one defensive trick, the ace of clubs, and he would double with two.


Faulty something:
a. I don't think that the pause suggests or but suggests weighing the outcome between sac and pass
b. The absence of X does not so imply 5H makes. To imply (from his view) that it makes he would sac.
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#10 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2023-September-07, 11:37

View Postlamford, on 2023-September-07, 04:07, said:

A regular partner of mine who did not play, said "the only choice is between pass and 6D. Double is not in the ballpark".

Seems right to me.
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#11 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2023-September-08, 13:45

That doesn't answer the question whether double is demonstrably suggested over 6.
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#12 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-November-20, 16:51

View Postblackshoe, on 2023-September-08, 13:45, said:

That doesn't answer the question whether double is demonstrably suggested over 6.

Double is almost always suggested since it caters to both possibilities. It essentially tells partner that whichever option they were considering during the pause, they should do it now. Neither Pass nor 6 caters to both options in this way.
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#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2023-November-21, 01:05

You assert that double is demonstrably suggested over 6. Okay, now you get to demonstrate how it's suggested. B-)
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#14 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-November-21, 09:20

View Postblackshoe, on 2023-November-21, 01:05, said:

You assert that double is demonstrably suggested over 6. Okay, now you get to demonstrate how it's suggested. B-)

I thought I did. Re-read the previous post again and get back to me.
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#15 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2023-November-21, 11:30

What he said was "Double is almost always suggested by a hesitation in a potential sacrifice situation".

The demonstration he gives is "...because it says 'hey partner, whatever you were thinking about, go ahead and do, you're safe.' "

Whether that is sufficient for you is definitely something to discuss, but it's a very common argument, and usually is considered as holding water.

Now, assuming we're going with that argument, there are two paths that we go down:
  • Pass is clearly Forcing (whether because it's Obvious to All A Players, or clearly marked in system notes, or whatever). Now, the UI from the hesitation is "I don't know what to do here, partner" - but "Pass" says "I don't know what to do here, partner, you pick". So - there shouldn't be a disallowed LA.
    • Having said that, there's been an argument forever about whether "pass-and-pull" is stronger or weaker than immediate action. And the argument I find persuasive was from the EHAA book: Weaker is theoretically better, but gets rolled back on the inevitable director call when partner hesitates before the "forcing" pass, or when decider hesitates before doubling. Stronger wins the TD call much more often.

  • If this isn't a FP situation (and the one in the OP doesn't seem like "obvious to all", unless there's a whole ton of meaning to West's calls I don't know about) then we're in Gilithin's world: "Pass is possible by system, but partner wants to do something; doubling is a good way to say 'partner, whatever you wanted to do, do.' " And we go down the path:
    • Is Pass an LA? If so, "the hesitation clearly shows interest in something other than defending 5 undoubled."
    • If not, is 6 an LA over double? It doesn't have the "whatever you want" issue as it's hard to defend 5 any more...but is it reasonable? And does it score worse than 5x?

I don't know where I sit on the "double in face of a 'make a forcing Pass by hesitating'" argument. I'm not going to throw it out of hand - because yeah, double does allow for "whatever you wanted to do, do". But I'm not in "we can (bridge-)never allow double", either.
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2023-November-21, 17:52

View PostGilithin, on 2023-November-21, 09:20, said:

I thought I did. Re-read the previous post again and get back to me.

"Double is demonstrably suggested because it caters to both possibilities"? Okay, you got me. Now what?
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#17 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-November-22, 01:24

View Postblackshoe, on 2023-November-21, 17:52, said:

"Double is demonstrably suggested because it caters to both possibilities"? Okay, you got me. Now what?

Next is to find out what the LAs are. Earlier it was suggested that Pass and 6 were LAs but perhaps we should take more than a single opinion.
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#18 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2023-November-22, 02:09

View PostGilithin, on 2023-November-22, 01:24, said:

Next is to find out what the LAs are. Earlier it was suggested that Pass and 6 were LAs but perhaps we should take more than a single opinion.

That’s why I suggested a poll. Not a very original idea, but in cases like this quite useful. Beter anyway than to spend a lot of time and thought on all (im)possibilities.
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#19 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2023-November-22, 06:03

View Postlamford, on 2023-September-07, 04:07, said:

For what it is worth two pairs saved over 6H in 7D! A regular partner of mine who did not play, said "the only choice is between pass and 6D. Double is not in the ballpark".

I don't have the other auctions but agree a poll is right.


Why would 5HX be off the table before even knowing what the auction means?
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