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How do you proceed? 15-17NT

#1 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 01:14

You have Texas transfers available, but beyond that its up to you whether you use broken suit transfers, 55 showing bids etc.

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#2 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 05:15

I think treating this as a game forcing 5-5 is most flexible. If partner has 4 or 3 in either major we'll get to our best fit, and if partner opened 1NT with 2-2 in the majors we still get to 4. We might end up in spades if partner has 3-3 majors and prefers spades to hearts, which is unpleasant but low frequency.

There's a case for making a slam try but my partners always have lots of wasted diamond values on this auction.
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#3 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 06:38

A somehow optimistic view of the hand (facing a strong NT) is to make a mild slam try with 55(+)M, which for me is 2H followed by 4H. But our suits need complements and overall we are a bit weak, the 6th H is good but the CK would be great on top of that.

The probably most serious description of the hand is 55+ M, which is 4D for me.

Over a weak NT, I would probably also try that at red IMPs - hoping partner doesn’t turn up with KQ D.

In all cases, I’m not taking the S suit out of the picture to focus only on the 6-cd H suit and the known fit there.
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#4 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 09:31

Just had a thought on this one. How about a 2 range ask followed by 4 as 55 as I'd be more inclined to look for the slam knowing I was facing a max.?
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#5 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 10:08

Being min or max in the 15-17 range is only very loosely related to having the cards we need. I think that plan is not much better or worse than showing a 55 GF.
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 11:08

In one partnership, we have 1N 3D as 5-5 majors, invitational or better but never a hand with strong slam interest

Over 3D, opener bids:

3H/S: To play opposite an invite

4H/S: To play, willing to bid game but not a super-max

4C: great hand for hearts

4D: great hand for spades


The 4m bids would typically be something like Axxx Kx AJxx Axx or Ax Kxxx KQx Axxx or Kxxx AQx Axxx Kx

If playing that method, this is an easy 3D bid, raising 3M to 4, passing 4M and driving to slam opposite 4m. Note that the 4m hands will not have ‘soft’ values.

In my other main partnership, we have options, yet none very satisfactory. 6=5 majors are reasonably easy:

1N 2H forces 2S (we go through 2C with 5 spades and invitational values, so opener won’t superaccept 2H because responder is either less than invitational or gf) then 3D, transferring to hearts…and will be 5-5 or better, since we play smolen.

But 5=6 is awkward since we can’t show hearts then spades unless we use smolen.

So I’d probably start 2C then, if he bids 2D, bid 2S, showing various hand types including smolen but most commonly an invitational hand with one or two four card majors

Opener bids 2N with a minimum and 3C maximum and over either I show 4=5 majors, pulling 3N to 4D to show 4=6.

Playing in less defined partnerships, i smolen in the more standard method. One advantage of smolen is that occasionally partner surprises you by showing a major and now you’ll (if playing with a good player) have a way of showing some slam interest.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 12:46

What is 2-2-2-any-3 in terms of range ?
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#8 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 13:05

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-August-12, 12:46, said:

What is 2-2-2-any-3 in terms of range ?

That's 5-5 invitational for me unless opener bids 3.
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#9 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 13:21

View PostDavidKok, on 2023-August-12, 10:08, said:

Being min or max in the 15-17 range is only very loosely related to having the cards we need. I think that plan is not much better or worse than showing a 55 GF.

If you use 3/ as 55M GF then I'd agree as you have the space to explore the slam and sign-off in 4. However, I use these bids for other shapes. I think the difference between a 24 & 26 point slam would be material here.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 13:23

View Postmw64ahw, on 2023-August-12, 13:05, said:

That's 5-5 invitational for me unless opener bids 3.


What's 2-2-2 followed by 4 over something that isn't 3 ?

I don't have this issue, we bid 4 as either signoff or going on 5-5
2-2-3-any-4 as mild invite 5-5
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#11 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 14:50

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-August-12, 13:23, said:

What's 2-2-2 followed by 4 over something that isn't 3 ?

I don't have this issue, we bid 4 as either signoff or going on 5-5
2-2-3-any-4 as mild invite 5-5

2 only promises 4 for me so 3 would be 4 min and 4 4 max
In fact over 2 2NT is invitational denying 3 and showing 3; opener never being 22 in the Majors
3NT would be max. without 3 so responder can bid 4 with 5+
3/ don't exist unless I wanted to use them for choice of games with a weak 3
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 15:31

View Postmw64ahw, on 2023-August-12, 14:50, said:

2 only promises 4 for me so 3 would be 4 min and 4 4 max
In fact over 2 2NT is invitational denying 3 and showing 3; opener never being 22 in the Majors
3NT would be max. without 3 so responder can bid 4 with 5+
3/ don't exist unless I wanted to use them for choice of games with a weak 3


Not what I meant, 1N-2-2-2-2N-4 for example would be what range ? there are several sequences which can be used here, 5 exists too here.

TBF if partner bids 2N, 4m should probably be at least 5-5M amd a void.
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#13 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-August-12, 15:53

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-August-12, 15:31, said:

Not what I meant, 1N-2-2-2-2N-4 for example would be what range ? there are several sequences which can be used here, 5 exists too here.

TBF if partner bids 2N, 4m should probably be at least 5-5M amd a void.

OK 4 would be less than ~11hcp after 2NT with a modified loser count of less than 6.5, otherwise I'd play 1st/2nd round controls followed by Kickbo finding the void by re-cueing the minor.
The reason I posed the original question was that partner went straight for the Texas Transfer, but I thought that the hand had slam potential, but was too hcp light.
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2023-August-14, 04:35

For me, 3!D shows this hand. When partner bids his preferred major at the 3 level, I raise to game.
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#15 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-August-14, 16:39

After a reasonable discussion with my new partner ChatGPT we would bid 1NT 4D 4H 4S then proceed

There were other options of course but my partner is always concerned to keep things simple and that both of us are on the same page

I'm concerned it uses too much space so prefer a regular Jacoby followed by a jump in the other major, or transfer to spades then 3 hearts

I don't think I can do it in my regular system but managed a slam via Stayman and a lucky heart fit :)
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#16 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-23, 17:28

Here's a system I picked up from BBF for showing various ranges for hands with 5+ in both majors:
1NT - 2 -- 2 - 3 = 5-5 or better majors, invitational
1NT - 4 = 5-5 or better majors, Texas style, either wanting to play 4M or willing to ask for key cards (first step RKCB, others = Exclusion)
1NT - 2 -- 2 - 3 = 5-5 or better majors and slam interest

As Mike points out, selling s 6-5 as a 6-4 is also possible. Most will do this via some form of Smolen but how pairs get into their Smolen sequence can vary quite a lot.
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#17 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-August-24, 14:41

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-23, 17:28, said:

Here's a system I picked up from BBF for showing various ranges for hands with 5+ in both majors

we put all 5-5 INV or GF+ through our Stayman, which works nicely and keeps things simple (gives up Crawling with weak 5-5, no big deal).

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-23, 17:28, said:

1NT - 2 -- 2 - 3 = 5-5 or better majors, invitational

Assuming 2 is Kokish/BR, surely this is the only sequence available to impose trumps in hearts (unless you give up a minor and play transfers).

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-23, 17:28, said:

1NT - 4 = 5-5 or better majors, Texas style, either wanting to play 4M or willing to ask for key cards (first step RKCB, others = Exclusion)

No qualms about giving up Gerber, but putting this in Stayman at 3-level gains a round of control-bids.

View PostGilithin, on 2023-August-23, 17:28, said:

1NT - 2 -- 2 - 3 = 5-5 or better majors and slam interest

Giving up showing a more frequent 5 hearts 4 diamonds (or a re-transfer to hearts)?
In any case I would have thought that in a "standard" system 1NT - 2; 2 - 3 is GF+ showing 5-5 (5-4 GF would go through Stayman and either Smolen or a jump rebid).
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#18 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-24, 20:56

View Postpescetom, on 2023-August-24, 14:41, said:

we put all 5-5 INV or GF+ through our Stayman, which works nicely and keeps things simple (gives up Crawling with weak 5-5, no big deal).


Assuming 2 is Kokish/BR, surely this is the only sequence available to impose trumps in hearts (unless you give up a minor and play transfers).


No qualms about giving up Gerber, but putting this in Stayman at 3-level gains a round of control-bids.


Giving up showing a more frequent 5 hearts 4 diamonds (or a re-transfer to hearts)?
In any case I would have thought that in a "standard" system 1NT - 2; 2 - 3 is GF+ showing 5-5 (5-4 GF would go through Stayman and either Smolen or a jump rebid).

This comes from a complete system built around second round transfers after a 2 response that I picked up on here. You do not need cues in the 1NT - 4 auction because if you did you would instead use the 1NT - 2; 2 - 3 one, which gives a full range of control bids. This auction is not needed for diamonds because that is shown via 1NT - 2; 2 - 3. Similarly, clubs (along with a 5 card invite and a slam-interest 1-suiter) are shown through 1NT - 2; 2 - 2. It may seem like a lot of changes but the reality is that it is just using another set of transfers and very simple.
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