[luke warm]

imagine your transfer responses to a strong club are:

1d=0-7
1h=5+ spades, 8+ pts
1s=5+ hearts, 8+
1nt=8-11, no 5 card suit
2c=8+, 5+ diamonds
2d=8+, 5+ clubs

ok, imagine opener accepts the transfer, but that this doesn't necessarily set trumps... in this case, is it better to play the acceptance as tab, as control ask, or as some sort of distribution ask? iow, if you plan on using further relays for other purposes, what order do you think is best? thanks

[Echognome]

Questions/Comments

1. What does responder do with a balanced hand of 12 or more points?
2. How does opener "accept" a transfer in each of the cases? I.e. over 1♣-1♦ you can argue that 1♥ is acceptance or 2♥ is acceptance. However, over 1♣-1♠ is 2♥ acceptance or do you have to jump to 3♥. Same issue over the minors.
3. How much memory do you want in the system? It seems that shape first seems the most effective once you are in a GF auction and the opponents haven't intervened. But you have to put in some work to memorise the shapes.
4. If you would prefer the natural route, then you need a way to set the suit first. You have specifically said that this doesn't set trumps. Therefore responders first priority is to bid a second suit if two-suited, rebid his suit if that's the main feature, or bid NT (or some other bid) to show flexibility.
5. Once you have established what the suit is, then I'm indifferent between control asking bids versus general cuebidding.
6. Instead of not necessarily setting the trump suit, why doesn't opener offer a second suit instead of accepting if he feels there might be a better place to play? That way there is less confusion in the auction later.

[luke warm]

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1. What does responder do with a balanced hand of 12 or more points?

2nt is 12-14

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2. How does opener "accept" a transfer in each of the cases? I.e. over 1♣-1♦ you can argue that 1♥ is acceptance or 2♥ is acceptance. However, over 1♣-1♠ is 2♥ acceptance or do you have to jump to 3♥. Same issue over the minors.

after 1c, 1d is negative so opener bids naturally... after 1c : 1h, 1s accepts.. after 1c : 1s, 2h accepts.. 1c : 2c : 2d accepts, 1c : 2d : 3c accepts

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3. How much memory do you want in the system? It seems that shape first seems the most effective once you are in a GF auction and the opponents haven't intervened. But you have to put in some work to memorise the shapes.

it isn't that hard, imo.. i like shape also, but can see the value of the others... just remember, without a 5 card suit responder will bid notrump (if positive)

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4. If you would prefer the natural route, then you need a way to set the suit first. You have specifically said that this doesn't set trumps. Therefore responders first priority is to bid a second suit if two-suited, rebid his suit if that's the main feature, or bid NT (or some other bid) to show flexibility.

well i won't get too indepth here, but responder's rebids are based on the fact that he didn't bid some number of notrump... therefore, he has an unbalanced hand by definition... so i'm thinking that the acceptance by opener asks, and responder bids steps:
1-any 5332
2-any 5/4 no void
3-any 5/4 with void
4-any 5/5

this has been fleshed out somewhat, but too much to type... the point is, it's logical (based on high shortage, etc, typical relay structure)... another point is, it's just thinking out loud, not set in stone

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6. Instead of not necessarily setting the trump suit, why doesn't opener offer a second suit instead of accepting if he feels there might be a better place to play? That way there is less confusion in the auction later.

after dist is known, the next suit bid by opener can be tab for that suit... that's what i'm asking

[Echognome]

My only concern about this is that the levels seem to be getting you too high. You haven't included 64, 6331, 6322, and 7 card suit hands.

If you're going to go the relay route, why not go full bore and look into symmetric relay or moscito type responses?

What I meant by natural was that responder can simply bid his second suit if 54 or rebid his suit if 6+ card suit or NT if 5332? If that interests opener, he can relay for the rest.

[luke warm]

that's true... i would only use this when opener accepts the xfer... he can have any number of reasons for doing so, without guaranteeing the final strain.. but you raise some good points

[Free]

Why do you reverse the suits instead of using REAL transfers?

1♥ = ♠
1♠ = any balanced (can show strength afterwards)
1NT = ♣
2♣ = ♦
2♦ = ♥

This saves a lot of space, and also rightsides the contract (even with NT)

[Double !]

I am familiar with but haven't actually played transfer responses, but I have a suggestion:
Lose the 1NT = 8-11. It tends to wrong-side contracts. I use a 1-H resp as 2-way, hearts or balanced 8-10. Even Meckwell doesn't use 1NT to show balanced hand: they use 2Diamond response = 8-10.

My sense is that, should partner accept the transfer, then it might be good to use it as TAB: remember, alpha before beta, before gamma, before delta etc. Then again, you lose the advantage of the transfer should partner's response be the suit P actually holds.
Anyway, just a thought.

[helene_t]

If the transfer accept does not necesarily set trumps, it is better to play it as a distribution ask so that trump could be set as early as possible.

[luke warm]

that was my thinking too, helene.. matt and fredrick, i agree about the 1nt.. thanks all

[whereagles]

Balanced hands are usually easy to bid. It is unbalanced hands that need bidding space. In that case, this structure is perhaps better:

1H = spades
1S = hearts
1NT = clubs
2C = diamonds
2D = balanced hand

then filling the transfer can be a TAB. A jump acceptance of the transfer can be, say, 6-ace blackwood. (queen = 6th trump, 1-4,2-5,3-6 responses.)

[tysen2k]

whereagles, on Jul 4 2005, 08:11 AM, said:

Balanced hands are usually easy to bid. It is unbalanced hands that need bidding space. In that case, this structure is perhaps better:

1H = spades
1S = hearts
1NT = clubs
2C = diamonds
2D = balanced hand

That's what I use except that I reverse hearts and clubs since when you bid 1NT (clubs) you are much more likely to end up in a wrong-sided NT contract than if you bid 1NT (hearts).

I play that accepting the transfer is a total control ask. That way if responder is a minimum then opener can jump to game without relaying and revealing responder's shape.

Tysen

[luke warm]

tysen2k, on Jul 5 2005, 04:11 PM, said:

I play that accepting the transfer is a total control ask. That way if responder is a minimum then opener can jump to game without relaying and revealing responder's shape.

Tysen

why not just play control responses and save space?

[Echognome]

We do play control responses over our strong diamond and that seems to work reasonably well except for when responder has a two suiter and this can sometimes get to too high a level before a trump suit is agreed to reasonably explore slam.*

We play 1♦ = 17+, then

1♥ = 0-6 hcp Negative
1♠ = 7+ hcp with less than 3 controls, GF
1NT = 5+ controls, GF
2♣ = 3 controls, GF
2♦ = 4 controls, GF
2♥/2♠ = 3-6 hcp with a 6 card suit
2NT = 8+ hcp, 55 or better minors, GF
3x = Solid Suit, Slam Try

This has the nice effect of seldom wrong-siding the NT contracts as responder only bids 1NT when they have a relatively strong hand themselves. Also, we get a lot of parallel structure when opener rebids 1NT.

* My suggestion to solve the two-suited problem is to get rid of the old precision style 2♥ and 2♠. In playing this system for over two years now I can remember the bid only coming up once. If 2♥ or 2♠ are 55 hands with that suit and another (perhaps 2♥ = ♥'s and another and 2♠ = ♠'s and a minor), then there'll be less pressure to get both bids across in preemption is about to occur on your left. If preemption occurs on your right then you are in the same boat as the strong clubbers.

[keylime]

Since I use compressed transfers, when a lack of fit is shown, it's often at opener's rebid.

1C-1H (black suits or 15+ balanced)

If pard finds 1NT call they are asking for clarification. They can bid 1S to show fit, 2C to show fit as well...

1C-1S (red suits or 12-14 balanced)

Pard can bid 1NT to show interest in both, 2C to show interest in one, but not the other.

[tysen2k]

luke warm, on Jul 5 2005, 06:23 PM, said:

tysen2k, on Jul 5 2005, 04:11 PM, said:

I play that accepting the transfer is a total control ask.  That way if responder is a minimum then opener can jump to game without relaying and revealing responder's shape.

Tysen

why not just play control responses and save space?

Because it actually is a waste of space if you haven't found your fit yet. Find the fit first, then ask for controls, not the other way around.

[luke warm]

i can honestly say i don't know which way is 'best'... i do know that a lot of great players, legends and legends-to-be, have played controls first, shape first, points first