# BBO Discussion Forums: Symmetric relay for Precision 2C opening (5C+4M) - BBO Discussion Forums

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## Symmetric relay for Precision 2C opening (5C+4M)

### #1Nirmalya

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Posted 2023-May-17, 05:03

Are there any symmetric relay available?
We play 2C opening with 5 Card and 4 card Major. 2 is a transfer to and 2 is transfer to
Trying to explore if symmetric relay can be tried.
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### #2DavidKok

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Posted 2023-May-17, 06:02

Edit: I misread, I thought you played some artificial opening, not a standard 5-card Precision 2 opening. It does not fit, not even close. The below is for an opening showing 5(+) and an undisclosed four card major, not one that may have that but may also be a list of other shapes.

Does it deny a 5-card major, but longer clubs are allowed? If so it would fit. The entry point for a specific short two-suiter is 2NT, so that you could play:

• 2 - hearts (you could equally well choose to make this spades), 2 GF relay asks again, scheme continues as below.
• 2 - does not exist
• 2NT - Spades with high short (so heart shortage, scheme continues as below)
• 3 - 4=2=2=5 (equal shortage with spades)
• 3 - 4=3=1=5 (generic 5431 with low short and spades)
• 3 - 4=2=1=6 (generic 6421 with low short and spades)
• 3 - 4=3=0=6 (generic 6430 with low short and spades)
• 3NT - 4=1=1=7 (generic 7411 with spades)
• 4C - 4=2=0=7 (generic 7420 with low short and spades)
This is the symmetric structure. You don't get to ask about min/max and need to be game forcing to try this, optionally you can also decide to throw out some of the 4-7 hand types.

Most Precision 2 openings also contain hands with long clubs (and no 4cM), as well as hands with long clubs and four diamonds. You cannot fit all of those in, though you could (for example) reserve 2-2; 2 for 'long clubs, no major' and go +2 on those shapes. If your 2 opening always promises a 4cM the scheme above works (you may technically wish to include 4=4=0=5 as well). In addition you may wish to have some invitational bids available, these also can't fit in 2.
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### #3Nirmalya

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Posted 2023-May-17, 07:18

Thanks David
However, our 2 may contain longer clubs and no major.
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### #4straube

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Posted 2023-May-17, 07:42

If you can have five clubs you will be a bit uncomfortably tight for relays. You have to fit in the 4D/6C hands as well as the more obvious 4M/5+C and 6+C hands.
Most Precision folks have moved to require six clubs for their 2C opening and that really gives you a solid anchor suit to fall back on. With six clubs relays are quite doable, just a bit tight sometimes.
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### #5foobar

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Posted 2023-May-17, 10:24

straube, on 2023-May-17, 07:42, said:

If you can have five clubs you will be a bit uncomfortably tight for relays. You have to fit in the 4D/6C hands as well as the more obvious 4M/5+C and 6+C hands.
Most Precision folks have moved to require six clubs for their 2C opening and that really gives you a solid anchor suit to fall back on. With six clubs relays are quite doable, just a bit tight sometimes.

+1 -- if you change the requirement to 6+C for the opening, IMPrecision has a pretty elegant ~symmetric structure over it.
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### #6foobar

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Posted 2023-May-17, 10:31

Nirmalya said:

We play 2C opening with 5 Card ♣ and 4 card Major. 2♦ is a transfer to ♥ and 2♥ is transfer to ♠
Trying to explore if symmetric relay can be tried.

Nirmalya, on 2023-May-17, 07:18, said:

Thanks David
However, our 2 may contain longer clubs and no major.

So, it seems that your 2 opening can be:

1) 5+ and a 4CM
2) 6+ (but no 4CM)

If so, I would recommend going with just 6+ (and says nothing about side suits). This is much more amenable to relays.
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### #7Nirmalya

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Posted 2023-May-17, 10:44

foobar, on 2023-May-17, 10:31, said:

So, it seems that your 2 opening can be:

1) 5+ and a 4CM
2) 6+ (but no 4CM)

If so, I would recommend going with just 6+ (and says nothing about side suits). This is much more amenable to relays.

6 card with 4 card M is possible
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### #8foobar

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Posted 2023-May-17, 11:09

Nirmalya, on 2023-May-17, 10:44, said:

6 card with 4 card M is possible

OK -- the recommendation to dump the 5++4CM hands and go with just 6+ (and maybe side suit) still hands.
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### #9akwoo

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Posted 2023-May-17, 20:26

As far as I can tell, most of the pairs I know who want something fairly complicated are playing the 30-year-old Berkowicz-Cohen structure, with 2 an asking bid with a variety of artificial responses all with artificial followups. It's not a full relay system, but it comes close. It has to be pretty good if it's that complicated and survived 30 years. I don't remember the details off the top of my head.
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### #10johnu

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Posted 2023-May-17, 21:33

My methods are not symmetric. Only maximum 5+ and 4+M hands are opened 2

2 shows a maximum with either 4 or 6+

After 2:
2NT shows a maximum with 6+ and 2 outside stoppers
3 shows a maximum with 6+ and 1 outside stopper
3 shows 4 with a diamond fragment
3 shows 4, semi-balanced 2=4=2=5
3 shows show 4 with a spade fragment

If opener has a minimum 6+ hand, after the 2 relay,
2NT shows a minimum with 6+ and 2 outside stoppers
3 shows a minimum with 6+ and 1 outside stopper

Responder asks for stoppers over 2NT and 3 with 3
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### #11hrothgar

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Posted 2023-May-22, 09:46

Standard symmetric structures allow for 5/5 patterns when holding a two suiter

Precision style opening structures do not

So, you're going to need to completely revisit the relays because one of the pivots isn't there.

Perhaps

2!D = relay and then

2!H = 5+ Clubs and 4 Hearts
2!S = single suited with clubs (at +2)
2N = 5+ Clubs, 4 Spades, high shortage
3!C = 4=2=2=5 or 4=1=1=7
Alderaan delenda est
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### #12straube

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Posted 2023-May-23, 15:48

hrothgar, on 2023-May-22, 09:46, said:

Standard symmetric structures allow for 5/5 patterns when holding a two suiter

Precision style opening structures do not

So, you're going to need to completely revisit the relays because one of the pivots isn't there.

Perhaps

2!D = relay and then

2!H = 5+ Clubs and 4 Hearts
2!S = single suited with clubs (at +2)
2N = 5+ Clubs, 4 Spades, high shortage
3!C = 4=2=2=5 or 4=1=1=7

Yeah, that's high for single-suited with clubs.
Don't forget 4D/6+C
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### #13foobar

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Posted 2023-May-24, 10:21

straube, on 2023-May-23, 15:48, said:

Yeah, that's high for single-suited with clubs.
Don't forget 4D/6+C

Think it's time to wake up and smell the 6+ coffee . Berkowitz-Cohen are doing great in the USBF finals, and am almost sure that they too have moved on, but you can trying going through the vugraph archives.
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### #14hrothgar

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Posted 2023-May-25, 14:16

straube, on 2023-May-23, 15:48, said:

Yeah, that's high for single-suited with clubs.
Don't forget 4D/6+C

Open those with 1!D or 3!C or something
Alderaan delenda est
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### #15Kungsgeten

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Posted 2023-May-29, 01:08

I think the main problem is that you often want some non-GF hands in the 2D relay, but if 2D is game forcing, here's my take:

2C-2D;
2H = 6+C, single-suited.
2S = 5+C and 4H, short-legged two-suiter.
2NT = 6+C and 4D, or 4-4-0-5 (if that shape is included into your 2C opening).
3C+ = 5+C and 4S, short-legged two-suiter.

2C-2D; 2NT-3C;
3D = 6+C, 4D, short spades.
3H = 4-4-0-5 <-- The "equal shortness" step is replaced with the 4-4-0-5 hand.
3S = 2-1-4-6
3NT = 3-0-4-6
4C = 2-0-4-7
4D = 1-1-4-7 <-- The 7411 shape is always a bit problematic.

I think this should put you at "+1" compared to original symmetric. Also you don't have 5332s in the single-suited hands, so it might easier/better to use something other than symmetric. Maybe:

2C-2D; 2H-2S;
2NT = 7+C, no void.
3C = Any 6322.
3D = 1-3-3-6
3H = 3-1-3-6
3S = 3-3-1-6
4C = 7+C, void hearts.
4D = 7+C, void diamonds.
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### #16Kungsgeten

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Posted 2023-May-29, 01:48

Here's another structure I toyed with a while back: http://snortingmarad...c_transfer.html

The idea is to use 2D as "hearts or relay", so this is similar to OP's current structure where 2D is a transfer to hearts. In this structure (43)15 and 5422 shapes are excluded from the 2C opening. The (43)15 hands can be opened with a Precision 2D (or in our case we include these shapes into our Swedish club) and the (42)25 hands can be treated as balanced.
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