[mangurian]

I have not been successful in finding for articles that address this specific situation. I have been having a debate with a sometime partner on this. We both have strong opposing opinions. The bidding goes P - 2X - P - ? There are tons of articles on opening weak twos, but not the specific situation of P - 2X - P - ? .

The basic questions are when does one advance the preempt in light of:

• responder's hand shape/strength
  
• Whether X is a minor or major
  
• Vulnerability (your/opps)

All opinions or references gratefully appreciated.

[jillybean]

What are your agreements for a weak 2, second seat?
Point range?
Honors in suit?
Does vulnerability matter?

[Gilithin]

 mangurian, on 2023-April-27, 19:12, said:

All opinions or references gratefully appreciated.

Partnership Bidding at Bridge specifically goes into the differences in preempting style by position and would be my first reference for this, and indeed most other theoretical competitive bidding questions. Generally, you need to agree a preempting style with your partner, with second seat preempts typically being considerably purer than those for 1st and 3rd seats. The suggested book uses a 1-10 scale for this in order to make agreements easier to comprehend.

[mangurian]

 jillybean, on 2023-April-27, 19:17, said:

What are your agreements for a weak 2, second seat?
Point range?
Honors in suit?
Does vulnerability matter?

Let's assume the simple down 2 vul, Down 3 non-vul.

[mangurian]

 Gilithin, on 2023-April-27, 20:47, said:

Partnership Bidding at Bridge specifically goes into the differences in preempting style by position and would be my first reference for this, and indeed most other theoretical competitive bidding questions. Generally, you need to agree a preempting style with your partner, with second seat preempts typically being considerably purer than those for 1st and 3rd seats. The suggested book uses a 1-10 scale for this in order to make agreements easier to comprehend.

Does it go into responses ?

[Gilithin]

 mangurian, on 2023-April-27, 20:50, said:

Does it go into responses ?

Click on the link and read through (at least) pages 62-71. Then come back with additional questions as needed.

[jillybean]

 mangurian, on 2023-April-27, 20:49, said:

Let's assume the simple down 2 vul, Down 3 non-vul.

What does a down 2 vulnerable and down 3 non preempt look like?

[thepossum]

For me you advance if there is chance of game or slam - because I learned that opener is not supposed to say anything more unless asked or forced - but I am assuming you know how many tricks your partner is showing with their weak 2 (if you know that you can work out from your hand a hoped for total number - eg a weak 2 for me could mean anything from 4 to 6 tricks depending on various factors - then you look at your hand and decide - if you don't feel you can add much best to stay quiet). I have a very simplistic approach to bridge around how many tricks you think you can make. There is another situation if you think you have a better higher ranking 2 bid maybe show that Its a remarkably simple game when you understand the point of it and how to score it

Maybe we need a little example. Suppose you know that your partner's bid means they think they have approximately 5 tricks in hearts, say, and you reckon you can add around 4 or more extra tricks then you consider advancing etc. That could involve bidding directly to game, asking more information using 2NT or even bidding another suit with more tricks or more scoring potential. Otherwise you pass. Sorry edited a minor mathematical error
* Disclaimer. This not may not work with your partner depending on what their bid means - does it mean they think they can make 6 or 4, maybe even just 3 tricks. It also requires a knowledge of suit rankings, how many tricks each need for game, what type of scoring you are playing etc - and the ability to count the trick potential in your hand and add up. But we aren't talking big numbers and complicated sums. Also your partner's 2X may not be a weak 2 at all That is for you to know, not me

[DavidKok]

I play a far more aggressive preemptive style, and will generally give a lawful raise when I have one. You need to agree before you open a weak two what sort of hand might make game opposite. If you play the rule of 2 and 3 (as you cited) the standard answer is the rule of 17 - add your points and trumps, with at least 17 you should make a game try. As an aside I'd recommend Andrew Gumperz' Better Preempt series over at Bridgewinners over Robson & Segal on weak two bids.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

if you play the rule 2 or 3: You count cover cards, if the cover cards indicate
that you are +2 you bid game, with +1 you may invite.
https://www.bridgeba...43-cover-cards/

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mangurian]

Very little reponse here to the question of continuing the preempt, so I will try to provoke more relevant answers with specific cases.

They are vul, we are not
The auction has gone P- 2H - P -
You hold x, 10932, Axxx, Jxxx
Opponents will almost always be a lock for 4 spades. If partner has a max for his weak 2H, maybe they only make 3S.
What do you do?

Suppose you hold a much better hand -same bidding.
This time, you hold x, 10982, AQxx, xxxx
What do you do?

Thses are the types of situations I am asking about. I did not find them addressed in the references.
I wonder if Mike Lawrence (my "go to" bridge author) has written on this.

[DavidKok]

Realistically those scenarios don't come up. Partner is limited to, say, 10 HCP for the preempt, usually at most 3 spades and 6(+) hearts. That gives the bad guys and girls 9(+) spades, 25(+) HCP and at most 3 hearts combined. People make it a habit not to pass those values, neither in first seat nor over a 2♥ opening. It is just barely possible that LHO has 5♠ and ~11 HCP in a 5=0=4=4 or 5=1=(43) and decided not to open while RHO has a (semi)balanced 14-count (4=3=x=y, or 4=2=(43) with values in the doubleton? 4=2=2=5 with a fear for partner's 3♦?) and couldn't find a bid, but it is very rare. Your best bet is probably to raise partner to 3♥ to shut out LHO from entering with a cheap 2♠. If they didn't brave the 1-level on the first round they probably won't brave the 3-level on the second round.

I think the reason there haven't been many useful responses is that this is a scenario that doesn't really exist. If we have a weak hand in fourth seat and partner preempts, one (or both) of the opponents will usually have made some bid. If we additionally have support for partner the opponents rate to have unbalanced hands and will usually stretch to show long suits or a enter the auction with a takeout double. If I held this hand on this auction at the table I would suspect that an opponent miscounted by an ace or so, or had a few diamonds in with their hearts (or they are not very experienced).

[Gilithin]

 mangurian, on 2023-April-28, 07:05, said:

Thses are the types of situations I am asking about. I did not find them addressed in the references.

It's on page 65, building on factors covered earlier in the book. Have you even bothered to read the reference I previously posted?