[thepossum]

Hi all

I seem to remember that in Acol the NT ranges were so well defined that you could clearly know whether to invite or go to game or explore slam

I keep having situations with GiB 2/1 where there are gaps in the No Trump bidding ranges - eg opener rebid over a forcing NT

I accept if forcing NT is, say, 6-11(?) HCPs that opener needs approx 18+ to think of 3NT but surely only 14 or so to think of inviting - so why does the 2NT bid say 18+ points too (EDIT sorry 17-18, my memory)

Any thoughts or clarity on the matter please

I thought in theory it should work quite nicely like a conversation clarifiying how many points you have to within small error

I could put an example simple 3NT range hand up to demonstrate traveller chaos but I will leave it to the imagination

I scored ok on 1NT+3 - even at IMPs

[smerriman]

Your balanced hands all fall into very clearly defined 2-3 point ranges, with the general plan being:

12-14: open 1 of a suit, rebid 1nt
15-17: open 1nt
18-19: open 1 of a suit, rebid 2nt
20-21: open 2nt
22-24: open 2♣, rebid 2nt

If you've opened 1M with a balanced hand and partner responds 1NT, then you have either have the weak hand (where you don't want to invite in no trumps, just bid 2 of a suit; then you'll find out if partner wants to invite or not), or the strong hand. There's nothing in between that needs dealing with, because those hands open 1NT.

If you have an unbalanced hand, then you might be weak, medium, or strong, but then you don't want to raise no trumps; a cheap suit rebid is wide ranging, but partner will strive to keep the bidding open wherever possible. You get to find out if partner is weak or invitational first, and then can clarify your exact strength on the third round.

[thepossum]

smerriman, on 2023-March-16, 17:34, said:

Your balanced hands all fall into very clearly defined 2-3 point ranges, with the general plan being:

12-14: open 1 of a suit, rebid 1nt
15-17: open 1nt
18-19: open 1 of a suit, rebid 2nt
20-21: open 2nt
22-24: open 2♣, rebid 2nt

If you've opened 1M with a balanced hand and partner responds 1NT, then you have either have the weak hand (where you don't want to invite in no trumps, just bid 2 of a suit; then you'll find out if partner wants to invite or not), or the strong hand. There's nothing in between that needs dealing with, because those hands open 1NT.

If you have an unbalanced hand, then you might be weak, medium, or strong, but then you don't want to raise no trumps; a cheap suit rebid is wide ranging, but partner will strive to keep the bidding open wherever possible. You get to find out if partner is weak or invitational first, and then can clarify your exact strength on the third round.

That all looks fine in theory

Maybe I need to post the hand up that looked like a nice 3NT (via invite) but caused so many so much trouble

Opener had 14, responder 12 etc

Two people successfully invited, and one made the 3NT, but some others had big trouble. Most of us stayed in 1NT+3 (which I include in the trouble because I felt lost and disappointed - until it scored well)

[smerriman]

If you're passing a forcing bid then you're certainly not going to be able to get to game I'm guessing you had something like a 4-5-2-2 where the standard continuation is 2♣, despite the GIB description saying it shows 3.

[thepossum]

smerriman, on 2023-March-16, 19:24, said:

If you're passing a forcing bid then you're certainly not going to be able to get to game I'm guessing you had something like a 4-5-2-2 where the standard continuation is 2♣, despite the GIB description saying it shows 3.

I think you missed my point then. I wanted to invite with 2NT but the description was off by 3 points (editted to 3 - always get mixed up)

That is the whole point of the thread

No need to insult or patronise like that. You should know by now. I know my way round a hand of cards

I wanted to invite but had 3 points less than the description. That is not my problem

In future ignore the NT ranges you describe and just invite when you feel it is appropriate - that's the strategy

I knew we had enough to invite but couldn't. That is someone else's problem

And I have asked before, and don't like ad hom but you keep undermining me every time
If you are an independent entity why the constant defence of problems raised with the GiB 2/1 system - risk missing out on a contract perhaps
You don't have to compete with me. Not my market mate

Back to Bridge and maybe respect my comment for once
Some controlling entity somewhere requires a silly little dance to find an easy 3NT game

I do understand there are people who feel the need to establish some kind of power or kudos on sites such as this. But no need to insult people to do it

15-17 I bid 1NT, less than that or more than that I did something else. Less than that I consider and invite, more than that I go to game, maybe
Rebid over a suit makes sense 12-14 or 18-19 - filling in the gaps around 15-17

Same principle over a semi-forcing NT - you decide to pass invite go to game or possibly more - two people ignored the point ranges, invited and found a good contract - easily makeable too

FYI it was a 5332 hand - no obvious suit contracts

Also everyone who did the little dance ended up in trouble - I will not insult you by telling you how it can go wrong

For those who don't know. If you do the little dance you start to get into slam territory - maybe they did the dance wrong and gave the wrong signals

Note to self. When its 35 degrees don't engage in Bridge chat

[Stephen Tu]

It's a bad idea to invite 1M-1nt-2nt with 14, because responder can have 6-9 instead of 12. 14+(6-9) in 2nt+ or higher is too high a lot of the time. Plus partner will play you for the 17+.

The idea behind 14 hcp 5332, where you would accept an invitation by responder, but don't want to get too high opposite the weak part of his range, is to not pass 1nt, nor raise to 2nt, but instead rebid a 3cd minor (or 2c if 4522), then go ahead and bid 3nt if responder bids 2nt or raises your minor. Then you get to 3nt with the 14 opposite 11 or 12, but stay at a more sensible 2m or 2M if responder has the weak 6-9/10, and passes your rebid or just takes a preference to 2M (which you will pass), or bids 2d or 2H new suit, showing weak hand long suit, which you will also pass.

You are waiting for responder to invite which you would accept, not inviting directly yourself (with <17) which gets too high when responder is weak. That's how 2/1 normally operates.

Nobody's trying to insult or patronize you. We are just trying to teach you stuff about bridge you apparently don't understand/haven't learned yet. This is not an insult. No one is born knowing all things bridge. Stop thinking everything is a personal attack.

[smerriman]

I give up. If you're going to continually attack everyone who tries to help you improve at bridge, then you'll stop getting replies. No more from me.