[jillybean]

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As the title says, undiscussed, will you still open 1♥?

Sorry, hand diagram botched, 1st seat W vs. R. MPs

[mikeh]

Which seat? What scoring?

But, for me, the answer is almost certainly ‘no’.

With 5=6 majors, I can usually pass and bid later. Meanwhile, opening 1H misleads partner about our hcp and risks losing a spade fit, although that latter point won’t arise often and even then sometimes won’t cost.

My main concern is that in a competitive auction, partner will assume we have more defence or at least better suits than we do.

I recognize that most posters here like to be in charge of the bidding. Me? I’m happy to give partner equal standing.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2023-February-23, 22:48, said:

Which seat? What scoring?

But, for me, the answer is almost certainly ‘no’.

With 5=6 majors, I can usually pass and bid later. Meanwhile, opening 1H misleads partner about our hcp and risks losing a spade fit, although that latter point won’t arise often and even then sometimes won’t cost.

My main concern is that in a competitive auction, partner will assume we have more defence or at least better suits than we do.

I recognize that most posters here like to be in charge of the bidding. Me? I’m happy to give partner equal standing.

I agree with you, this is in essence a very nice 7 count, not a 1 opener, 3rd seat I'd consider ekren and bidding again or a multi.

[DavidKok]

Flip the spades and the clubs and I'll open. With the example hand the risk that we will get preempted is not as large, and I will pass.

I think there are many reasons one might want to open a weak shapely hand like this. Mikeh's implication that opening means trying to control the auction, or at least not 'give partner equal standing', seems shallow to me.

[LBengtsson]

Put one of the minor suit jacks in the ♥ suit instead of a small card and I am opening with this 6511. I agree with mikeh that in a competitive auction partner will think I have more defense, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet. I would rather open than see the auction go 1m - 3m by the opps. and then have to decide what to do.

But as the hand stands (in jillybean's original diagram) I will not open with this hand. The suits are weaker.

[TMorris]

As with the others it is easier to describe the hand by passing first so I will do that.

[jillybean]

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1♥ : 1♠
2♥ ?

[DavidKok]

1♥-1♠;
2♣ (Gazzilli) -2♦ (8+, likely);
2♥ (weak hearts+clubs, at least 5-4)

In standard you'd rebid 2♣. If you open shapely two-suiters I prefer to show both.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-February-24, 11:42, said:

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1♥ : 1♠
2♥ ?

I don’t understand this desire to always take action. If playing a big club, wth the agreement that 1M shows 8-15, which is fairly popular amongst those who play a Meckwell-lite form of big club, then partner won’t expect more (he may hope for more) than this for 1H

But playing a standard or 2/1 method, we already have the issues that arise from a range of a good 10 to a difficult 21+. Why compound it? Wtf does it do to partnership trust if we open hands with no defence, no aces, and essentially a 7 count?

I do understand that distribution counts….but the times to upgrade for distribution are either after a fit is found (then feel free to go nuts on the right hands) or when we have a borderline opening bid…hence I’d always open AJxxx AJxxx xx x and I think so would virtually everyone these days.

However, when you don’t have an opening hand, don’t open. It’s not that complicated.

While opening 1H will sometimes work out well. I think ir to be a long term losing proposition with a good partner. With weak players, and with weak opps, one can bully one’s way through. Partner won’t make penalty doubles based on our supposed strength, and won’t bid aggressively to slam based on shape rather than hcp. The opps won’t double us when we get too high and they may well underbid. So, of course, these actions can work but, long term, they are, imo, detrimental.

I was part of a group in the bar after a game yesterday and we had lots of discussion about bidding some of the more interesting hand. As I said to them yesterday….I’m happy being a boring bidder. As a friend and frequent partner (multiple NABC and Canadian winner) said in response….’mike always has his bid…it makes him easy to play with’.

At favourable I’d open a weak 2 bid, intending, if opportunity arose, to show clubs next. That’s a fairly normal way to bid 6=5 without opening values. Whether one bids clubs depends on what happens.

At other vulnerabilities I think I’d just bid 2H and, if partner enquires, do whatever shows a good hand (preferably also a bad suit)

Yes, this is boring. But that’s the point. Watch top flight bridge. A lot of players play aggressive methods so appear to be bidding aggressively. What’s key is that they do so within a system that expressly provides for light action. What appears to be an aggressive bid is, then, simply a system bid.

To give an example, with one partner a first seat favourable 3D bid might be xxx x QJ98xx xxx. Looks silly and can backfire but when partner opens 3D, I don’t move unless I have a huge hand or a great fit. IOW, our methods are aggressive but our choices within the methods are disciplined. In my other partnership, I’d never dream of 3D, because we play a more conservative style.

Both styles work sometimes and not other times, but both styles work well most often when partner can trust our actions.

Finally, if 2H isn’t for you, pass. You will often get a chance to show your two suiter, while denying opening values, later (if the auction suggests doing so)

As for suggestions such as how to deal with 1H 1S, fine. Try dealing with 1H 2D

Or try dealing with 1H (2S) 3D

Or other situations in which partner doesn’t make the most convenient bid for you.

[DavidKok]

You're right, 2♥ is better than 1♥ on that hand. Possibly 3♥ is better still, depending on vulnerability and position. I think passing is poor, though.

[jillybean]

Thanks, I'm discussing this hand with 2 partners; one who thinks we should open 1♥, the other who thinks we should pass.
While I love bidding these 6-5 hands, and would have opened "any" 6-5, I'm now of the mind that nothing good comes from opening these hands.
The problem has been compounded for me and partners who have opened on this type of hand and got a good result. It's very hard to convince someone that their above average result is actually bad bridge. I'm now convinced that this style in the long run, produces mediocre minus results at the club, in Open competition you'd probably get eaten alive.