BBO Discussion Forums: how to bid this hand - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

how to bid this hand

#1 User is offline   phoenixmj 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 173
  • Joined: 2016-July-30

Posted 2023-February-18, 20:21



I had this hand today and not sure how the bidding should have gone. I was south and I opened 1D. West passed and my partner said one spade. east passed. We do not play spiral, and I only had 3 spades.

When I opened with 17 points, I did not have the correct shape to reverse. I do not have enough points to do a jump shift. Per partnership agreement, a 2NT bid would promise 18-19 points and a balanced or semi balanced hand - and I have a singleton heart. I wound up bidding 2 clubs and held my breath hoping my partner would not pass. My bid was not forcing in our system. Fortunately, my partner bid.

My partner bid 2 diamonds (not sure if he should have bid 2N instead) and I decided to jump to 3 spades showing a strong hand and some support in spades. We wound up in 4 spades which was a good board.

How should the bidding have gone?

Thanks in advance.
0

#2 User is offline   thepossum 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,001
  • Joined: 2018-July-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2023-February-18, 21:39

I can't really comment with any great authority but I would either have reversed (1C 2D) or jump shifted (3C)

Its a shame not to force :) - and NT ranges are rather more sacrosanct to most
0

#3 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,670
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2023-February-18, 22:09

1 12 33

Is a good start. The hand is not strong enough for a 3 bid. This sequence is forcing and you will get to the excellent 5 contract.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#4 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,888
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, swimming, travel, it varies

Posted 2023-February-19, 01:00

View Postthe hog, on 2023-February-18, 22:09, said:

1 12 33

Is a good start. The hand is not strong enough for a 3 bid. This sequence is forcing and you will get to the excellent 5 contract.

Agree with the auction but fear many North will end in a hopeless 3NT. (edit)
Does South take it out of 3NT?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH
0

#5 User is offline   thepossum 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,001
  • Joined: 2018-July-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2023-February-19, 01:21

View Postjillybean, on 2023-February-19, 01:00, said:

Agree with the auction but fear many North will end in a hopeless 3NT.
Does South take it out of 3NT?



There are 9 top tricks on any lead :)
That's where my bidding ended up and I was relieved it wasn't hopeless - although always a chance I miscounted to 9. It does happen
And 9 is easier than 11 :)
Mayybe 4S+1 is better though
0

#6 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,888
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, swimming, travel, it varies

Posted 2023-February-19, 01:28

View Postthepossum, on 2023-February-18, 21:39, said:

I can't really comment with any great authority but I would either have reversed (1C 2D) or jump shifted (3C)

Its a shame not to force :) - and NT ranges are rather more sacrosanct to most


Please read MikeH's primer on reverse bidding.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH
0

#7 User is offline   thepossum 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,001
  • Joined: 2018-July-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2023-February-19, 01:36

I know the theory. Sometimes you have to improvise
Both my auctions ended in 3NT

But to keep Mike happy I have read it a few times since it is the pinned article

But despite people apparently telling me that I cannot reverse or jump shift I will go ahead and do one of those two things anyway and end in a makeable game

If people place extreme constraints on systems and how you bid your hand you have to be flexible and work around it

I am a fairly disciplined bidder so the jump shift seems less of a contortion to get around the hand
0

#8 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,888
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, swimming, travel, it varies

Posted 2023-February-19, 01:55

If you intend to get back to live bridge, with live partners, I think it would be sensible to introduce some discipline to your bidding. If you are going to reverse or JS on that hand, partner is not going to have any trust in your bidding.
If you insist on bidding like this, you will be looking for new partners on a regular basis.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH
0

#9 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,888
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, swimming, travel, it varies

Posted 2023-February-19, 02:06

You may be in the same predicament I've found myself in, with weak or perceived weak, partners where you find yourself trying to make up for their shortcomings. As I was advised here, you have to bid your hand and if partner isn't going to step up to the challenge, find a new partner rather than make bad bids trying to compensate.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH
0

#10 User is offline   thepossum 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,001
  • Joined: 2018-July-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2023-February-19, 02:07

View Postjillybean, on 2023-February-19, 02:06, said:

You may be in the same predicament I've found myself in, with weak or perceived weak, partners where you find yourself trying to make up for their shortcomings. As I was advised here, you have to bid your hand and if partner isn't going to step up to the challenge, find a new partner rather than make bad bids to compensate.


There is nothing wrong with my bidding Jilly

Just a tip. Please don't join in with the office bully and suck up to him so much.

What is everyone's problem. Seemingly despite my knowledge and experience in Bridge everyone thinks they have the right to jump on a lecture me

Why. As I said. Sucking up to the bully. But he does need his ego stroked. Its very fragile. As all can see

I can do without your insults too. Who are you anyway?

Your arrival has been fairly recent in joining in with the gang. But maybe you should back off and so should everyone else from playing MikeH's pathetic game

Do you all need someone to target. I have experience of obnoxiousness in Bridge clubs. Fat chance I will ever set foot in another one

But sometimes I make the mistake of thinking I am mixing with other similar level profesionally minded and behaved people

Back to the bidding though. Jump shift is an excellent bid and 3NT is a fine contract. As good as 5D with fewer tricks

Go and lecture you children, not me

And I have dealt with tougher people than all of you put together so all back off please

And I have spent my life standing up to bullies, personally, professionally and at a industry level

I am also professionally trained in their psychology and how they operate

You do appear to be a newbie on the block but I am not the ignoramus on this site or in this world

Just polite advice and request. Try not to suck up to the office (or other) bully

Everyne in the world searching for my posts and looking for an oportunity. That is how it appears to any objective observer I would suggest

I have been playing Bridge for over 40 years. Different philosophy perhaps. Not so fascist

Time for everyone to be more aware of bullies, bullying and how they operate. Even how they like to gaslight and misrrepesent their target as a group

But look at what you wrote and all the implicit/explicit insults. Almost every word

None of you could come close to even imagining some of the hard nuts I have had to deal with and still am

NOTE This has been edited multiple times in case anyone has quoted any of it. Its easier and hard to deal with this incessant rubbish with a simple comment. I have not changed the sense of any of it. I will not be reading any reponses

But one final thing needs to be said. The people/power/institutions I am up against in this world will stop at nothing to gaslight me. Corruption stops at nothing to make the ethical person look like the problem. Don't do it here please

EDIT AGAIN. With more apologies but its more efficient and I am not changing anything people are commenting on. As have I said on other occurrences on this site Bridge and maybe these forums intersect with many of the industry and professional (and personal) issues I am fighting. So I apologise for any apparent sensitivity to any cases of possible gaslighting or intimidation. I hope you all get my drift by nw. The powers I am up against are immense and seemingly highly corrupt. But we never know who is who and who is on which side. We must always be mindful of that. Especially when people get upset. But it plays into some corrupt powers' hands. I don't seek forums out such as this to do anything other than discuss one of my interests which is Bridge. But when repeated behaviours from maybe the same perps manifest themeslves I need to call it out. At least 3 huge powerful groups intersect through Bridge and this forum. And I am up against all of them. The dodgy interests in all of them anyway. The behaviour is a repeated one in many ways. All I want to do is discuss the issues yet a bunch on a forum keep jumping on me, apparently specifically. As an intelligent questioning person I wonder what its all about and why it happens. If I look back thorugh my comments (unedited) on this thread alone all I see is someone discussing a Bridge hand yet being singled out again. I wonder who they all could be on these forums (online and real life). Same behaviour. Same obnoxious attitudes. The same I met in a Bridge club more than 30 years ago which put me off clubs forever. Some of us need some encouragemennt that not everyone in a Bridge club is obnoxious. Otherwise we are stuck with boring robots. A game I have always loved. Especially the social variety. Not safe to go a club. That is sad for a game. I have even had to knock back invitations from people important to me who really wanted me to go to their club because of the level of obnoxiousness I have personally experienced in clubs. So are they all going to change and become decent friendly people or not. I have to avoid clubs because of the unpleasantness I experienced. Possibly special experiences with special people in my life. All of you need to think about that and how your obnoxiousness affects people. And despite how it may appear in a pleasnat relaxed environment I am no slouch at a Bridge table. Well beyond your and Hargraves and others' incessant put downs and insults. I appreciate bullying is part of the game. That's how it appears to me anyway.

One final edit with apologies to everyone. I have good reason to feel (given my rather unique experience and background) that some people are almost intentionally singled out and sensitised tor react in such a way all the time. A lifetime of gaslighting and sensitisation. As I have said elsewhere I do not believe people become desensitised by hurt. That is a convenient myth. Yes. Like all of the convenient myths. No if anyone thinks. What on earth did I say or do. Maybe you need to know someone's whole life experience before asking
0

#11 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,418
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2023-February-19, 02:21

Late to the thread

I think Ďnormalí standard bidding should get you to 4S, with 3N the other and safer game

1D 1S 2C 2N 3S .

Would be a popular sequence amongst competent pairs, with north perhaps bidding 3D over 2C, but 4333 itís not my styleÖ

I think north has an interesting choice here. He knows the opps are leading hearts on this auction and he probably canít hold up effectively. Thus 3N needs 8 winners outside of hearts, without losing a trick. Iíd feel better about that if my minors were reversed, giving me a chance of a fifth trick on length. Otoh, 4S is the sort of contract where you may be able to scramble 10 tricks. Partner has a very good 14-17 hcp 3=1=5=4 and you rate to have some play opposite most such hands (I havenít done a simulation. The constraints would be a little subjective.

The 1D 1M 2m sequence is a serious and rarely discussed weak area in bridge theory, if 1D is the Ďstandardí very wide range opening bid. 1D 1M 2D is not too bad, because opener is limited by not rebidding 3D. 1D 1M 2C is more problematic because, in standard methods, 3C forces to game opposite any response, no matter how weak. So the 2C rebid has to cover a very wide range and responder is often stuck guessing.

Iím not sure that a truly good solution exists.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#12 User is offline   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,660
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2023-February-19, 03:40

I open 1 and bid 2 over partner's 1. Partner knows that I don't have enough to force to game with a jump shift opposite a potential 5-6 HCP so will strain to find a response with 8+ HCP knowing I could be this strong. Once partner finds a response I am supporting spades showing three of them and we should find one of the making games, although 4 looks a bit hairy with that fit and needs a somewhat favourable layout such as a 3-3 break here.
0

#13 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,469
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2023-February-19, 04:26

View Postthe hog, on 2023-February-18, 22:09, said:

1 12 33

Is a good start. The hand is not strong enough for a 3 bid. This sequence is forcing and you will get to the excellent 5 contract.


I don't think it's clear 3 is better than 2N with this shape, partner bids 3 anyway, now it's a tossup which game you bid.

You want to be in 3N not 5 although with spades 3-3 4 will score best (I think 4 can survive spades 4-2 and diamonds 4-1 or clubs 5-1 as long as you don't get a minor suit winner ruffed in the short trump hand)
0

#14 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,658
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2023-February-19, 05:10

View Postmikeh, on 2023-February-19, 02:21, said:

The 1D 1M 2m sequence is a serious and rarely discussed weak area in bridge theory, if 1D is the Ďstandardí very wide range opening bid. 1D 1M 2D is not too bad, because opener is limited by not rebidding 3D. 1D 1M 2C is more problematic because, in standard methods, 3C forces to game opposite any response, no matter how weak. So the 2C rebid has to cover a very wide range and responder is often stuck guessing.

Iím not sure that a truly good solution exists.
Unbalanced diamond allows one to play either transfers or Gazzilli over 1-1M, which addresses these problems and more.
0

#15 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,418
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2023-February-19, 08:37

View PostDavidKok, on 2023-February-19, 05:10, said:

Unbalanced diamond allows one to play either transfers or Gazzilli over 1-1M, which addresses these problems and more.

I play an unbalanced diamond in one partnership. We have a complex set of agreements thereafter. I was discussing Ďstandardí methods.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#16 User is offline   bluenikki 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 456
  • Joined: 2019-October-14

Posted 2023-February-19, 10:35

View Postphoenixmj, on 2023-February-18, 20:21, said:



I had this hand today and not sure how the bidding should have gone. I was south and I opened 1D. West passed and my partner said one spade. east passed. We do not play spiral, and I only had 3 spades.

When I opened with 17 points, I did not have the correct shape to reverse. I do not have enough points to do a jump shift. Per partnership agreement, a 2NT bid would promise 18-19 points and a balanced or semi balanced hand - and I have a singleton heart. I wound up bidding 2 clubs and held my breath hoping my partner would not pass. My bid was not forcing in our system. Fortunately, my partner bid.

My partner bid 2 diamonds (not sure if he should have bid 2N instead) and I decided to jump to 3 spades showing a strong hand and some support in spades. We wound up in 4 spades which was a good board.

How should the bidding have gone?

Thanks in advance.

Responder should strain not to pass 1 - 1 ; 2 - ?

And opener should strain not to pass 1 - 1 ; 2 - 2 ; ?

That agreement would mean opener has to suppress the club suit more often than they would like with 5-4. I personally can live with that.
0

#17 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,670
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2023-February-19, 23:37

View Postjillybean, on 2023-February-19, 01:00, said:

Agree with the auction but fear many North will end in a hopeless 3NT. (edit)
Does South take it out of 3NT?


North should, Kathryn, as South would have shown a 3-1-5-4 shape.

"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#18 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,670
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2023-February-19, 23:50

"I don't think it's clear 3♦ is better than 2N with this shape, partner bids 3♠ anyway, now it's a tossup (sic) which game you bid." You may not think it is clear - I on the other hand think it is 100% clear. Responder has sharp cards. Axx opposite a stiff is excellent for a suit contract and poor for NTs. Give Responder KJT of Hearts and you have a point.As it is, give Sth an extra D and one spade less and we are in slam territory.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#19 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,670
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2023-February-19, 23:58

@the Possum
There is nothing wrong with my bidding Jilly.
Except that to force to game on the South hand is an overbid. After all, North does not need to have a robust 11 with 5 controls.

Just a tip. Please don't join in with the office bully and suck up to him so much.Why do you think Mike is an office bully? What he has posted is reasonable.
What is everyone's problem. Seemingly despite my knowledge and experience in Bridge everyone thinks they have the right to jump on a lecture me.Possum, I am sorry, as I did not realise you played internationally. When did you last play internationally? When did you last play in major national events? You are aware that Mike has I assume. I have not posted here in a long time, but I certainly do not see anyone lecturing you. People proffer advice; if you wish to take it do so, if not do not. For me mikeh is one of the 2 or 3 people on this site with something worthwhile to say and to whom I listen. On this hand I think he is wrong, but so what. He no doubt thinks I am wrong and that is why Bidding Forums exist.

I can do without your insults too. Who are you anyway?
Not polite.

Your arrival has been fairly recent
Not correct. Kathryn has posted on this site far longer than you have.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#20 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,418
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2023-February-20, 00:45

View Postthe hog, on 2023-February-19, 23:58, said:

@the Possum
There is nothing wrong with my bidding Jilly.
Except that to force to game on the South hand is an overbid. After all, North does not need to have a robust 11 with 5 controls.

Just a tip. Please don't join in with the office bully and suck up to him so much.Why do you think Mike is an office bully? What he has posted is reasonable.
What is everyone's problem. Seemingly despite my knowledge and experience in Bridge everyone thinks they have the right to jump on a lecture me.Possum, I am sorry, as I did not realise you played internationally. When did you last play internationally? When did you last play in major national events? You are aware that Mike has I assume. I have not posted here in a long time, but I certainly do not see anyone lecturing you. People proffer advice; if you wish to take it do so, if not do not. For me mikeh is one of the 2 or 3 people on this site with something worthwhile to say and to whom I listen. On this hand I think he is wrong, but so what. He no doubt thinks I am wrong and that is why Bidding Forums exist.

I can do without your insults too. Who are you anyway?
Not polite.

Your arrival has been fairly recent
Not correct. Kathryn has posted on this site far longer than you have.

Itís merely semantics but Iíve been around long enough that I recognize that actions I consider to be clear, to varying degrees, are often not seen that way by people whose views I respect. Indeed, several years ago we used to have a number of truly first rate players posting often, and I learned a lot from them, and still am learning even though those players have moved on (several have passed away).

So while I disagree with 3D, after 1D 1S 2C, I think itís a plausible action. I see it as second best, but Iím not banging the drum claiming that 2N is Ďperfectí.

Anyone who reads The Bridge World will be familiar with the Master Solvers Club. Itís the best feature, imo, by far and I learned a huge amount from it in the 80ís and 90ís. The ideas, especially of the moderators, play a big role in whatever skill I have at the game. All of the panelists are good players: most are truly WC. Yet, despite being asked to play the same, quite detailed, system (Bridge World Standard, which is periodically revised, often substantially) no problem ever attracts unanimity, and many problems have several quite different answers finding support

Thus I donít say that 3D is Ďwrongí. I say that it isnít my choice and I have reasons for that, while recognizing that in some hands 3D will do better than would my choice of 2N

As for the possum, I regret having treated him badly in my initial posts replying to his. Itís pretty clear that he has an unhappy life and I donít like that Iíve contributed to his feeling picked on.

One problem with online fora is that we donít usually get to know that people with whom we are interacting: we know very little of who they are or their life circumstances. In hindsight, I should have simply paid him no attention. Not to be cruel, but because I shouldnít have called him a trollÖ.I no longer think he is or ever wasÖ.and efforts to provide constructive advice/criticism are invariably construed as a personal attack.

I wish him well, and hope that at some point heíll gain some happiness. Until then Iím not going to comment on anything he posts. How others deal with him is up to them, and if anyone can have a calm exchange of views with him, well done!
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users