[pigpenz]

I was kibbing acbl tourney last night, and a player didnt alert his bid until it came up in pass out position. Now in real life a td might roll back the bidding to the nonalerted bid and give thatperson a chance to make a call.

should there be an option for TD's on bbase to do that?

[jillybean]

The TD can turn ON undo to allow a correction during a tournament.


jb

[pigpenz]

yes but just for this one table where the auction is, if there is no alert and opp says pass then the alert is announced its almost too late

[jillybean]

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm not sure what you mean. Turning undo ON for just one table is not going to be any faster than turning it on for all tables. The TD can turn it off immediately after the correction.

If its a clocked tournament and time is an issue, an adjustment would be made.

[bendare]

In the case Pigpenz describes, what IF the opposing side would have made a call had the non alerted bid been properly alerted and explained? Who is to know where the auction would have gone from there and what the final results would have been? The ONLY fair way is to back up the bidding per ACBL rules and proceed from there.

I frequently play and kibitz the BBO ACBL games and have never once seen the bidding backed up in such cases as Pigpenz has described. As for a director instead "adjusting" the score, that is pretty hard to do when they have no clue how the hand would have proceeded if proper alert had been made. Agreed when time is a factor an adjusted score might be in order. However, when in such cases there IS time to back up the auction, why do the directors not do that?

Additionally, when time is a factor and director feels there is not time to back up the bidding, would it not be in order to make a procedural penalty in terms of one or two trick penalty against the offenders-----particularly when the director can see opps actually did have a reasonable call had proper alert been made????

Failures to alert are far too commonplace and will likely remain so unless offenders get more than a tiny slap on the wrist (to remember to alert in the future.)

[Echognome]

There is quite a difference between allowing an undo and turning back the auction. Allowing an undo is for mechanical errors and is up to the players to decide. Rolling back the auction is for the director making a ruling.

Seeing that the directors currently have the right to adjust the score, I wouldn't be opposed to this right if it were easy enough to program. The main difference would be that the director could enforce rolling back the auction without the player's consent. Furthermore, the players wouldn't have to agree to several undos just to roll the auction back.

Of course, in order for it to be helpful, you would need a good director that could assess the situation (typically an MI problem), but I cannot see it hurting to allow the director to have such power, especially since they can change the score anyway. This might allow for a fairer score to be issued.

[jillybean]

Echognome, on Jul 28 2005, 01:46 PM, said:

There is quite a difference between allowing an undo and turning back the auction.

Sure, 'undo' may not be the correct button but the outcome is the same, the bid can be corrected.

[pigpenz]

I would think that it could be programmed into the choices for the person directing the game that they could undo a bid to roll back so that a person who has been harmed by the failure to alert, so that he can make his call with the knowledge that he did not have at the time. This happens all the time in real world bridge. If we are to make online bridge as near as possible to real table bridge this type of issue needs to be addressed.

As Bendare says, this happens all the time in ACBL games and in other games as well.

[mycroft]

Remember that the Law (world-wide, not ACBL-specific) says:

Quote

Law 21B. Call Based on Misinformation from an Opponent

    1. Change of Call
        *Until the end of the auction period (see Law 17E)*, a player may, without penalty, change a call when it is probable that he made the call as a result of misinformation given to him by an opponent (failure to alert promptly to a conventional call or special understanding, where such alert is required by the sponsoring organisation, is deemed misinformation), *provided that his partner has not subsequently called*.

[emphasis added] So, some auctions can be rolled back, others can not. As a (RL) TD, frequently I have to ask people in this situation if they would have done something else at their (first, second) turn to call, but not their third; upon getting that information, I allow them to take their third call back as required by L21B1. I need the information about the other calls, though, because:

Quote

    3. Too Late to Change Call
        When it is too late to change a call, the Director may award an adjusted score (Law 40C may apply).

Now, there are those - even outside of club games, which I think is highly inappropriate - who will roll back the auction more than the Law allows. While common, it is not legal, and any interest in transferring that "ability" to BBO play should be explained and refused.

BBO only note: The auction can't be rolled back after the last pass but before the opening lead (which is the end of the auction according to Law 17E) because at least two people have seen their partner's (and sometimes opponents') cards. I believe this small hole is - well, small (even if most RL L21 cases acome up at that time; self-alerts reduce the "explain at end of auction" problem for BBO).

Michael.