[jillybean]

I will always question a 1nt bid from now on.

---

After the hand I queried, 'shouldn't the 1nt bid have been alerted?" the reply, "No, it's just a point count"

No damage, moving on.

[DavidKok]

This auction is quite funny, but also (as far as I know) standard. A 1NT response is a catchall bid denying the ability to bid anything else, and includes potentially very wild distributions. Contrary to a 1NT opening this doesn't have to be alerted.

West selling out to 2♥ is against the odds, but here we are.

[jillybean]

Is it really an offer to play in 1NT?

[AL78]

jillybean, on 2023-January-25, 04:28, said:

Is it really an offer to play in 1NT?

No, in Acol it is showing enough to respond but a limited point count (usually 5/6-9), unable to show a suit at the one level and not strong enough to bid 2/1. Responder doesn't want to pass in case opener is maximum where game might be on so 1NT is used as the I-have-limited-values-but-nothing-to-bid call, sometimes called the dustbin bid.

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2023-January-25, 04:28, said:

Is it really an offer to play in 1NT?

This is one of the issues you face playing a semi-forcing NT; partner may pass with a flat balanced hand and you have a distributional hand
With a forcing NT responder can exit to a long minor or show a 55 misfit and ask opener to choose.
The other option is to play an alternative approach that removes some hands with a weak long balanced suit from 1NT

In this situation, I use 2NT as 55 in the 2 unbid suits or just bid 3/4/5♣ with 4.5 losers

[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2023-January-25, 04:28, said:

Is it really an offer to play in 1NT?

Of sorts. A lot of system have given up on playing 2m in most scenarios (not to mention that you have two opponents who tend to have an opinion on you playing 2m), and 1NT can be a superior contract to 3m even with wild shape. It conveys limited to no game chances and is natural in that sense. If you insist on cramming it into a box labeled 'natural', just pretend it is a more extreme form of false preference. You are unwilling to let the auction die out, unwilling to make a forward-going bid, and think the cheap 1NT contract might be a somewhat reasonable spot. Arguably 2m or 3m might be better, but you can't very well get there so you take your lumps.

[jillybean]

Very good to know thanks!

I don't think I could bring myself to bid a non forcing 1nt with this hand, I'd rather come in with 2nt later.

I'm of course very happy to bid a forcing 1nt (alert!).

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2023-January-25, 04:16, said:

This auction is quite funny, but also (as far as I know) standard. A 1NT response is a catchall bid denying the ability to bid anything else, and includes potentially very wild distributions. Contrary to a 1NT opening this doesn't have to be alerted.

West selling out to 2♥ is against the odds, but here we are.

I presume you mean standard with a semi-forcing 1NT (I agree), rather than a natural and NF 1NT.
I think East passing 2♥ is already strange if the scoring is MP.

[johnu]

Good discipline by West to pass out 2♥. 7-6 distributions are overrated. You should have 7-7 or 8-6 in the minors to continue bidding.

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2023-January-25, 13:59, said:

I presume you mean standard with a semi-forcing 1NT (I agree), rather than a natural and NF 1NT.

No, also with a NF 1NT. What else are you going to bid with this hand in such a system?

[Frank_lol_]

johnu, on 2023-January-25, 14:20, said:

Good discipline by West to pass out 2♥. 7-6 distributions are overrated. You should have 7-7 or 8-6 in the minors to continue bidding.

Director!

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2023-January-25, 14:26, said:

No, also with a NF 1NT. What else are you going to bid with this hand in such a system?

I confess I have little idea, I only briefly played such a system as a beginner... but pass looks tempting, I might be able to show this weirdo more effectively later, or make it pay in defence.

[thepossum]

jillybean, on 2023-January-25, 03:57, said:

I will always question a 1nt bid from now on.

---

After the hand I queried, 'shouldn't the 1nt bid have been alerted?" the reply, "No, it's just a point count"

No damage, moving on.

I have a fairly flexible attitude to opening and overcalling 1NT but that does seem rather extreme
Was it not an unusual 1NT - that would have been my call 2NT

Scrub all that. Sorry it is a response - I would say definitely questionable
Was going to allow an unusual NT bid

EDIT Again. What system are we playing 2/1 or Acol or something else? If 2/1 is it not the only permitted bid? Definitely not pass. I reckon argue for 2C
EDIT 2 I know people maybe aren't interested in my explorations in various 2/1 systems but one just became rather excited after 2C response and ended in 6Cx
EDIT 3 Further reading of the thread requires another edit. Under 2/1 if it is your only bid you should not have to alert it. I must check my card and the rules. If I alert something that isn't alertable what happens? You can tell I spend far too much time playing fake robot Bridge and not real Bridge with real people. Maybe I need to make a suggestion to BridgeBase on extra functionality. Another thread required regarding alerts if one partner knows the rule and another doesnt

[mikeh]

The 1N call is correct

In a forcing 1N method, such as most versions of 2/1, there’s a good chance of getting into 3C…1S 1N 2S 3C is to play.

One wrinkle after 1H 1N 2H is to play 2S as a minor two suiter, but that’s unavailable after 1S

In a method in which 1N isn’t forcing, theoretically 1N could end the auction and that may not work out well.

However, nobody can hope to become a good player without observing discipline in the bidding. Being disciplined is not at all the same as being conservative. One can be extremely aggressive and disciplined…being disciplined means always doing one’s best to make the call that partnership agreements and style suggest. If your agreement is that you can respond 2C with this hand, presumably intending to rebid a non-forcing 3C (which used to be very common even in some versions of 2/1), then bid 2C. It’s the disciplined bid if that’s your system.

But 2/1 players can’t do that…these days few play that 2C then 3C can be passed.

So what else can you do?

1N is almost never getting passed when you gave 5 hcp and voids in both majors. Someone is going to bid.

If it’s partner, you may end up in an even worse spot than 1S! Imagine him jumping to, say, 3H. Ugh.

But most of the time you’ll get to clubs…and once in a while partner will surprise you. Wouldn’t a 2D bid be nice?

Heck, you may be cold for 7C or 7D and have no play for 1S! So you can’t pass 1S….with your void there’s too much risk of it being passed out when partner has a good hand but poor spades

Qxxxx Axx AKx AJx. The opps likely aren’t balancing and on a heart lead you fail in 1S.

So unless you want a low percentage gamble (pass) or to severely break discipline (2C) you are stuck…unless 2C then 3C is passable….bearing in mind that that requires opener not to jam the auction by, for example, bidding 3S

So…is 1N a comfortable bid? No. Is it the correct bid? Yes.

[dokoko]

This is a standard NT response in most natural systems. Technically you suggest 1NT as final contract but partner is expected to bid if he is strong or unbalanced or both. Here East would have bid 2♥ without the overcall.

While it is unusual to have two long minors, one long minor of 6 or 7 cards is not that rare. It's just impractical to bid a long minor with such a low point count and then convince partner that you are much weaker than he expects.

[jillybean]

For clarification the 1NT bidder is NOT playing 2/1, 1NT is not forcing.

POSSOM - playing 2/1 you would bid a GF 2♣ with this?
Also are you saying playing 2/1, 1NT is your only bid but it is NOT alertable?

[Stephen Tu]

1nt *opening* implies balanced/semi-balanced hand. Unbalanced 1nt opening may or may not be allowed by local regulations, would usually require alert if routine on small singletons or voids of certain shapes.

1nt *response*, especially to a major (but also rarely to 1d, what do you do with a weak 0337 strong enough to respond but not enough for invite?), has *never* implied balanced/semi-balanced at all, although balanced/semi-balanced hands being a large portion of the hands you are dealt, those hands will make up a decently large percentage of 1nt responses. But you've always had plenty of hands with singletons/voids that had to respond 1nt because no support for partner. 2=5=1=5 7 count, what else but 1nt over 1s?. This one just happens to have more shape. For most natural systems, 1nt always has just shown enough to respond, but not enough for a 2/1, and unsuitable to raising partner directly, whatever those things require in your system, not requiring balanced shape at all. If you play it as NF, then it is de facto an offer to play there, although with some hands you'd really, really prefer partner not do so. If it's NF, then there's no reason for an alert, although in many jurisdictions it might require announcement or alert if it's "semi-forcing" and can contain invitational+ values.

[thepossum]

jillybean, on 2023-January-26, 13:00, said:

For clarification the 1NT bidder is NOT playing 2/1, 1NT is not forcing.

POSSOM - playing 2/1 you would bid a GF 2♣ with this?
Also are you saying playing 2/1, 1NT is your only bid but it is NOT alertable?

I would definitely consider a GF but may end up in unmakeable slam

I think 1NT is the only bid available in 2/1

No idea what alerting requirements are if it's the only bid. I haven't played many humans recently. Maybe it's alertable with people who don't know your system. Need to check the rules and my card��

Sorry there is pass of course �� no

EDIT Just checked and 1NT in 2/1 has to be announced or something like that Its a strange bid really. Neither one thing nor the other. Not sure why it is called forcing when it isn't necessarily. Things like that confuse me. According to an article by Larry Cohen my understanding is that partner has to announce whether it is forcing or semi-forcing

[smerriman]

As others have said, 1NT simply means you are too strong to pass and too weak to bid at the 2 level. Has never said anything about shape or that you want to play in 1NT, whether it's forcing or not. (And this being the standard meaning, it's not alertable, other than the usual announcement about forcing/semiforcing).