BBO Discussion Forums: 1NT with 4-4 majors - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1NT with 4-4 majors 2/1 ACBL

#21 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,559
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2022-November-23, 13:49

View Postmikeh, on 2022-November-23, 12:45, said:

One pair on the 2022 Spingold winners played that. They reached a slam (which arguably should have failed but was a ‘good’ slam) after 1N 2C 2N showing 4=4 minimum.

Obviously the main issue is that 2C has to deliver invitational values


Maybe just slow on the uptake, but I fail to see a clear advantage (except for the minimum warning) and see some obvious disadvantages?
2C has to deliver invitational values (major disadvantage) and we have (probably unnecessarily) disclosed a roadmap of the opener's hand.
0

#22 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,185
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2022-November-23, 14:59

View Postpescetom, on 2022-November-23, 13:49, said:

Maybe just slow on the uptake, but I fail to see a clear advantage (except for the minimum warning) and see some obvious disadvantages?
2C has to deliver invitational values (major disadvantage) and we have (probably unnecessarily) disclosed a roadmap of the opener's hand.

I don’t and wouldn’t play it, but obviously some good players see merit: I’ve never won a Spingold😀

Over 2N, responder transfers to his preferred major and can then make easy slam tries. Compare to 1N 2C 2H. Standard is then for responder to bid 3S as a slam try (often with 4m as a splinter slam try, so to add a little definition). That sequence represents a significant gain for the 2N shows 4=4, for the rare hands on which it matters.I’m not sure but I’d expect opener to bid 3C with a max and 4=4 so as to allow for transfers there as well.

My own preferred but complex method handles slam tries differently but, imo, at least as efficiently. For example, 1N 2C 2H 3H is a slam try (but obviously one should be confident of remembering it, since one risks opener passing).

I don’t like losing garbage stayman. That’s more problematic for the 14-16 range I play than for the slightly stronger ‘normal’ 15-17. I’m more likely to need to scramble than when opener is guaranteed to have at least 15.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#23 User is online   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,303
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2022-November-23, 15:48

For garbage to win over transfer and pass you usually need to find partner with a doubleton in your 5-card suit as well as 4(+) in the other major, since 5-3 fits with a 4-4 side suit tend to play better at the 2-level than the converse when the long hand is weak (and 5-2 tends to do better than 4-3). The basic idea being that you might lose the lead multiple times, so the extra length helps you maintain trump control.

Even then, if you play crawling (instead of garbage) you will often land in a 4-3 Moysian even with a 5-2 fit available. If you play garbage you need to assign two bidding sequences - 1NT-2; 2-2/2 - to weak hands. The more I look at it the more sense I think it makes to just transfer to the longer major and be done with it.

Of course, in return I am very stuck on 4=4=4=1 hands, or even 4=4=3=2 hands that want to get out before the doubling starts. Then again, with garbage these hand types might well land you in a 4-2 fit.
0

#24 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,013
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2022-November-23, 15:55

View Postmikeh, on 2022-November-23, 12:45, said:

One pair on the 2022 Spingold winners played that. They reached a slam (which arguably should have failed but was a ‘good’ slam) after 1N 2C 2N showing 4=4 minimum.

Obviously the main issue is that 2C has to deliver invitational values

View Postpescetom, on 2022-November-23, 13:49, said:

Maybe just slow on the uptake, but I fail to see a clear advantage (except for the minimum warning) and see some obvious disadvantages?
2C has to deliver invitational values (major disadvantage) and we have (probably unnecessarily) disclosed a roadmap of the opener's hand.

Invitational values or Law protection in 3M, perhaps. Then Responder could still use Garbage Stayman on weak hands with both majors except with 44(32).
0

#25 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,559
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2022-November-23, 16:06

View Postnullve, on 2022-November-23, 15:55, said:

Invitational values or Law protection in 3M, perhaps.


I see no Law protection beyond 2M with a 4-4 fit.
0

#26 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,559
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2022-November-23, 16:16

View PostDavidKok, on 2022-November-23, 15:48, said:

For garbage to win over transfer and pass you usually need to find partner with a doubleton in your 5-card suit as well as 4(+) in the other major, since 5-3 fits with a 4-4 side suit tend to play better at the 2-level than the converse when the long hand is weak (and 5-2 tends to do better than 4-3). The basic idea being that you might lose the lead multiple times, so the extra length helps you maintain trump control.

Even then, if you play crawling (instead of garbage) you will often land in a 4-3 Moysian even with a 5-2 fit available. If you play garbage you need to assign two bidding sequences - 1NT-2; 2-2/2 - to weak hands. The more I look at it the more sense I think it makes to just transfer to the longer major and be done with it.


When I switched my main partnership to a pure Puppet Stayman 3 years ago, one of my main fears was giving up Crawling.
It turned out to be a total non-issue: it's relatively infrequent (far less so than lucrative benefits such as being able to stop in 2) and as DavidKok argues "just transfer and pass" seems to work at least equally well, compensating the slightly more probable misfit with less information leakage about declarer's hand, plus avoidance of possible wrongsiding in hearts.
1

#27 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,013
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2022-November-23, 16:47

View Postpescetom, on 2022-November-23, 16:06, said:

I see no Law protection beyond 2M with a 4-4 fit.

3M is Law protected with

4423 (4432) opposite 4441 (4414): 17 total trumps
4423 (4432) opposite 4450 (4405): 18 total trumps

and even

4423 (4432) opposite 4423 (4432): 17 total trumps

but not with

4423 (4432) opposite 4432 (4423): 16 total trumps

.

There is of course no guarantee that total trumps = total tricks on particular deals.
2

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

2 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users