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Bidding the same values again & again

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 09:35



This hand follows much the same pattern as the last hand I posted here.

Here's a decent hand, nice diamond suit, good support for partner but only 3's so we settle for 1nt.
Now the opponents come into the auction, shall I pass, bid 3 or show partner 3 card spade support with 2?
She knows I wont have 4 card support as I didn't raise directly.
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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 09:54

I bid 2, many would have bid 2 directly or may not get the intervention having opened 1N.
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#3 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 09:55

I would pass. In no particular order:
  • We have some length and strength in clubs. Our hand does not scream 'compete', and even if it did the right bid would probably be a takeout double so that partner may choose to defend.
  • West's failure to double 1 suggests length in that suit, making it risky to compete. It is unlikely we have a double fit, and if partner has got short clubs and extra spades they are likely to act regardless (in fact, partner might well have bid on with that hand type without the intervention).
  • As the title suggests, it is bad to bid the same values twice. Our hand has not become more offensively oriented on the intervention, so why bid?
  • Partner has a much better idea of our hand than we have of partner's hand. Our lack of spade raise and lack of takeout double almost pins down our shape (4+ diamonds, 3+ clubs, 3- spades, balanced), and our strength is limited to 12-14 - a near perfect description. If it is right to compete, why should we be the one to pull the trigger?


Edit: because of the concentration of values you could treat this as a raise of 1 to 2, but there is less reason to do so now than there was last round.
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 09:59

View PostCyberyeti, on 2022-November-13, 09:54, said:

I bid 2, many would have bid 2 directly or may not get the intervention having opened 1N.

This is the N/B forum :D
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#5 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 11:28

if you want to bid 2S now, you should have bid 2S last time.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#6 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 11:49

Is a support X in play here?
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 11:49


Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#8 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 11:50

View Postmw64ahw, on 2022-November-13, 11:49, said:

Is a support X in play here?

when?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#9 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 11:51

Pass, if spades should be raised at all, the raise should have been last round. Now 2 scarcely gets in their way at all and if partner is minimum with four spades, pray for a 3-3 spade split: if they are 4-2 four two, you have just put your neck on the chopping block.
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#10 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 12:10

View Postjillybean, on 2022-November-13, 11:50, said:

when?

After 2
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#11 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 12:13

View Postmw64ahw, on 2022-November-13, 12:10, said:

After 2

I did not know that a support double applied here. No surprise that support doubles are up there with forgotten GB2nt.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 12:31

View Postjillybean, on 2022-November-13, 11:49, said:




then I've achieved what I want to achieve, now I pass
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#13 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 14:31

View Postjillybean, on 2022-November-13, 12:13, said:

I did not know that a support double applied here. No surprise that support doubles are up there with forgotten GB2nt.

Over 2C a X is usually not played as supportX, I would take the X as T/O oriented, but we play ALL low level X
as T/O, as long as there is some justification for this to do it.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#14 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 15:02

Maybe 2di would show this hand? I don't think I would bid 2di without a second place to play, which can only be spades.
This whole 'my partner paused so now I must trash the hand' attitude never worked for me --- DavidKok
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-November-13, 19:59

View Posthelene_t, on 2022-November-13, 15:02, said:

Maybe 2di would show this hand? I don't think I would bid 2di without a second place to play, which can only be spades.

Hi Helene, just confirming that you would bid 2 / 2?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#16 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-November-14, 04:31

View Posthelene_t, on 2022-November-13, 15:02, said:

Maybe 2di would show this hand? I don't think I would bid 2di without a second place to play, which can only be spades.


Depends how often you bid 1N rather than 2 with a 6 card diamond suit
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#17 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-November-14, 05:03

View Postjillybean, on 2022-November-13, 19:59, said:

Hi Helene, just confirming that you would bid 2 / 2?

Yes that's what I mean: first 1NT and then 2 over their 2.
This whole 'my partner paused so now I must trash the hand' attitude never worked for me --- DavidKok
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#18 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-November-14, 05:04

View PostCyberyeti, on 2022-November-14, 04:31, said:

Depends how often you bid 1N rather than 2 with a 6 card diamond suit

Yeah good point, strong notrumpers often open 1NT with a 6-card minor, and presumably you would rebid 1NT with the same hands in a weak NT system.
This whole 'my partner paused so now I must trash the hand' attitude never worked for me --- DavidKok
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#19 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-November-14, 08:03

...and frequently in competition decide they really didn't bid their hand properly, and come in with 3. And while they usually get away with it, it always puts a smile on my face when it goes for 5 or 800. "Once you've decided your hand is an X,..."

Having said that, partner has shown signs of life, and as the Yeti says, there are many who will raise partner rather than bid 1NT with 3-card support and a weak doubleton. Not something to spring on partner without discussion. But here, after bidding 1NT, it's usually safe, especially when LHO has shown effectively "takeout of spades". Yes, when RHO is the one with the 5 spades rather than partner, it might not play well. Would I do it here? Not sure. But not "no".

In the continuation, I strongly agree. Operation "get them to the 3 level" has succeeded, now I leave the rest to partner.
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#20 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-November-14, 09:48

View Postmycroft, on 2022-November-14, 08:03, said:

...and frequently in competition decide they really didn't bid their hand properly, and come in with 3. And while they usually get away with it, it always puts a smile on my face when it goes for 5 or 800. "Once you've decided your hand is an X,..."

Having said that, partner has shown signs of life, and as the Yeti says, there are many who will raise partner rather than bid 1NT with 3-card support and a weak doubleton. Not something to spring on partner without discussion. But here, after bidding 1NT, it's usually safe, especially when LHO has shown effectively "takeout of spades". Yes, when RHO is the one with the 5 spades rather than partner, it might not play well. Would I do it here? Not sure. But not "no".

In the continuation, I strongly agree. Operation "get them to the 3 level" has succeeded, now I leave the rest to partner.


Were you peeking?



The delayed double by West is strange, perhaps an immediate double would have stopped South's eagerness sooner.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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