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bidding i had 14 points i bid 1 h pr bid 2 s how many points would u think thr

#1 User is offline   friese 

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Posted 2022-October-19, 06:12

i had 14 points opened 1 h pr bid 2 s what would u expect them to have in points
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-October-19, 06:21

Depends on methods, for some, something like a weak 2 opener, for me a game force 12+, for others 16+.
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#3 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-October-19, 07:11

For some exactly 9-11 :D
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#4 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-October-19, 07:42

Not what I play, but a weak 2 in with 6+ seems the most logical as a natural bid, given you have 1 available for shorter/stronger bids, although doesn't GIB play it as a Soloway Jump-shift?
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#5 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-October-19, 13:15

I would prefer it to be a Soloway jump shift, strong but not showing (just) points but specific hand types.

If partner didn't play that, I would expect them to be playing the second most common option according to this poll, which is a weak jump shift; showing *less* than a 1 response (definitely not 6+).

But playing it as invitational 9-11 is reasonable too.

If partner made this bid without discussion, I would expect to be playing on BBO with a weak random partner, and they probably have 6-10 or so.
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#6 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-October-19, 14:15

Really unfortunately, what you're hearing is correct - this is one of those calls that doesn't have a specified meaning. Or more particularly, it has several specified meanings, and which one your partner thinks is "obvious" is - a crapshoot.

If your partner is from North America, I would assume they think it's natural (shows 6 or so spades) and either:
- game forcing (old fashioned, but what it should be without discussion), or
- very weak (only will play well in spades, < 6 HCP. This is "more modern", and likely if they think it's this, it's because "everybody" (in their circle) plays it that way).

Unfortunately, if you guess wrong either way, you're headed for a zero/-6 IMPS.

Now, many players have agreed that it's something else yet. I have played:
  • ART GF heart raise
  • 4 hearts, 0-1 spades, and 8-10ish
  • 4 hearts, 8-10ish, and a singleton somewhere
  • 10ish, 5+spades and 4 hearts
  • ART GF (almost) any hand

and I'm sure others will have other meanings yet (mostly raises of some sort). How do you know? Well, most of the people playing this weird stuff know they have to agree it first, so they'll have talked to you about it. But still - this is just one of the sequences that without discussion, you're on a guess; and with a pickup, you'll get it wrong sometime (and partner will blame you for it).

On the other end, if you make the 2 bid, what is partner going to think it is? Well, the discussion should make it obvious that "if you haven't discussed it with partner, try to find another sequence that isn't quite so prone to misunderstandings" (i.e. "don't do that then").
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-October-20, 07:28

Of course if playing f2f without screens, partner is going to have to alert (or not alert) the agreement about this bid, so you have a fair chance of learning what she thinks it means (which is UI, so yet more reason not to play undiscussed weird sequences).

I'm surprised that only mycroft mentioned very weak as a likely meaning though. It's a useful agreement and a hand worth a normal weak 2 opening can bid 1 here with no obvious disadvantages.
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#8 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2022-October-20, 08:48

View PostDavidKok, on 2022-October-19, 07:11, said:

For some exactly 9-11 :D

Me too!
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#9 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-October-20, 12:51

View Postpescetom, on 2022-October-20, 07:28, said:

I'm surprised that only mycroft mentioned very weak as a likely meaning though.

I'm surprised you didn't see my post ;)
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-October-20, 15:50

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-October-20, 12:51, said:

I'm surprised you didn't see my post ;)


Oops sorry!
I confess I stopped reading after Soloway ;)
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#11 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2022-October-22, 03:35

I like to play the jump shift as natural weak with a range of 5-8 pts or so. That way it adds definition to responder's nonjump spade rebids after a 1 response.

Example: 1-1;2 You hold AJxxxx/Kxx/xx/Kx. If you can rebid 2 nonforcing but constructive opener can invite with support and pass with a misfit even if holding extras (or suggest some other contract). If you have to jump to 3 you may play there opposite shortness.

Invitational jump shifts are usually played for that same goal, which I think is technically worse. When I hold a minimum or slightly subminimum responding hand opposite an opener, usually the only reasonable game is in my long major. The same is not true when I hold an invitational hand. So bidding after the jump is usually easy if the jump shows a weak hand but may get involved on invitational hands when opener has extras but no fit.
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#12 User is offline   tlalamba 

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Posted 2022-October-30, 20:30

What is ‘Super Accept’
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#13 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-October-30, 21:11

1 2 is one of those auctions that I dread with pickup partners on BBO

Some play it weak, which I can accept, others play it strong, which without agreements usually sees the auction end in 4S, making 7
More sophisticated players have other meanings for it.
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#14 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-November-01, 08:02

View Postjillybean, on 2022-October-30, 21:11, said:

1 2 is one of those auctions that I dread with pickup partners on BBO

Some play it weak, which I can accept, others play it strong, which without agreements usually sees the auction end in 4S, making 7
More sophisticated players have other meanings for it.

I'm not a great favourite of weak jumps in general, but I like playing this as very weak (5+ cards 0-5 HCP). 2S is probably the ultimate bid in terms of preemptive value versus risk, so it makes sense to play it as drop dead and count your blessings.
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2022-November-01, 10:46

View Postpescetom, on 2022-November-01, 08:02, said:

I'm not a great favourite of weak jumps in general, but I like playing this as very weak (5+ cards 0-5 HCP). 2S is probably the ultimate bid in terms of preemptive value versus risk, so it makes sense to play it as drop dead and count your blessings.

I like that :)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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