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new system I'm starting to learn: 1S opening

#1 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-September-25, 12:46

Someone expressed an interest in a bidding system I have started to learn with a good partner. I do not know all of it but I do have the notes for the 1 and 1 openings, and I have only practised some of the sequences after the 1 opening.

After a 1 opening:

Weak with support:
2 = 5 - poor 11 HCP, 3 spades and sometimes 4 spades with no singleton, 9-10 loser hands.
3 = 4-7 HCP, 4 spades and shortage (singleton or void), 8-9 losers or 10 NV or 5332 shape.
4 = 5 spades, pre-emptive, 7 losers or 8 NV.

Invitational with support:
2NT = 8+, 3+ equivalent to 10-12 HCP with shortage values, 8 loser hands.
3x = 7-11, 5+suit with 3+, nothing in the other two suits e.g. xxx, Jx or Q

Game forcing with support:
2NT = 8+ HCP, most game forcing hands.
3x = 15+, 5+suit with 3+, slam try.
4x = 11-15 HCP, splinter with 4+, singleton or void but slam unlikely unless opener is good.

After 1-2:
2NT = relay to 3 on all weak or balanced hands. Breaking the transfer accepts the game try and responder may show a shortage as a slam try. (3 shows a shortage and is forcing). After the 3 relay, opener bids 3// to show a shortage.

After 1-2NT; 3x:
3 = Declines, minimum and/or a poor holding.
4 = Accepts, but unsuitable for slam (fewer than 4x).
3y = A useful holding with game try values (may also be an Advance Cue Bid).
3NT = 4+ support for Opener's 2nd suit.
4any = A cue bid (fewer than 4x).

After 1-2NT; 4x:
Here Opener is trying for Slam and shows specifically a VOID. Responder reacts accordingly. Any Blackwood bid will now exclude that Ace, of course.

No support:
2/ = 6-12 HCP, strong 6+ suit or very strong 5 card suit, 0-1.
2 = 5-9 HCP, strong 6+ suit or very strong 5 card suit, 0-1.
3NT = 2 and 14ish balanced.
1NT = all other hands.

After 1 - 1NT:
2 = any ordinary opening hand with <4 and 3+ (may be 5323)
2 = any ordinary opening hand with <4 and 3+ (may be 5323)

After 1 - 1NT - 2:
2 Special Case: A passed hand shows 5-5 in / and is weak.
2 = GF denies 5, may have either or .
2 = 11+ INV+ 5+ forcing to 2NT or 3 of a "bid suit".
2 = 6-10 balanced, usually 2 but may be 3 and 4333 shape.
2NT = 11-12 Natural and invitational, may have 4 or 4-5minor.
3 = 10-13 NF, 5+.
3/: 13+ GF, 6+ solid suit (playable in 7 opposite a void).
3: 11-12 Hx in .
3NT: 14ish, balanced but 0-1, otherwise bid 2 to investigate Opener's shape.
4: RCKB for
4: To play (e.g. AK to 8 and junk).

After 1 - 1NT - 2:
As above except:
3: 12+ GF, denies 5, may have either or .

After 1 - 1NT - 2:
3 = Inv, 4+.
3: 13+ GF, may be a shape enquiry rather than .
3: 13+ GF, 5+.

After 1 - 1NT; 2m - 2:
2 on ALL hands with 6 (and thus 4 of the bid minor) (this is forcing to 2N)
2N = a minimum and 5 (this may be 5233, after 2 only, else 5? with 4+ of the minor)
3 (after 2) = 15+ and 4+
3 (after 2) = 4th Suit force with 4
3 (after 3) = 15+ and 5044 shape
3 (after 2) = 15+ with 5+
3 = a minimum and 53
3 = a Cue Bid with 53
3N = ANY 52 with 15+(good 14) & unsuitable for other bids, so does not show any stops!
4m = a Cue Bid with 53
4otherm = VOID with 53
Responder must continue, after 2 or 2N.
The 4th suit establishes a Game Force. All three other bids at the 3 level are INV and may be Passed by the Opener.

Note: 1 1NT 2 2: Any bid by Opener that does not support must show 4+; as 5332 is the only shape with 3.

After 1 1NT 2m 2(INV+) 2N:
3y = GF. The fourth suit is a Game Force. Opener then bidds the next suit up (relay).
3x = 11-12. Any previously bid suit may be passed.
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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2022-September-25, 22:24

I have no problem with advanced/expert players learning "logical" specific bidding with a few artificial bids thrown in. Most of this seems logical to me, just tightening the meanings of the various bids. Most of it seems fine, unless I have missed something, using a forcing 1NT response to its maximum effect. (I have never liked semi-forcing 1NT in a 5M system.)

I like the way the 2NT response has been expanded and is not just a Jacoby 2NT which, as I see it, is a low probability option. I have never been a great fan of Bergen either, again on a probability basis as you are more likely to have 3 card support than 4 card. So having it semi-constructive (in the invitational sequence) showing a side suit looks better.

I guess the 1 opening and response sequence is similar. It will be interesting to find out if it improves your results with a regular partner, and good luck using it.
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#3 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 00:52

Weak with support
The 3/4 bids looks too wide ranging.
With a 7 loser hand slam could be on if partner is strong, but they won't know whether it is pre-emptive of not.
Better to use 3/4 as pre-emptive only based on The Law NV/VN and use 3-3 as the mixed raises, which then means you need to show your limit raise another way.
The game try 1-2-2NT
The original Goren style has 2 as the 9 loser hand with the 10 loser hand going via 1NT.
This provides the basis for a sounder game try

1-1NT-2-2/2 GF/GI
perhaps a better use is some sort of Bart/Lisa etc. to find the weak 5-3/6-2 fits and stick with a modern standard 1-2/2 as 5+ GF/GI
i.e.
1-1NT-2-2 6+ Weak
1-1NT-2-2-2 3s-Pass/Correct
1-1NT-2-2 2s 9+hcp GI
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#4 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 01:43

VERY INERSTING !
DOES THE 1 SPADE HAVE LOWER AND UPPER LIMIT ?
sory for shouting caps locck was stuck
Michel
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#5 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 01:45

Thank you for sharing! The raise structure looks good, the jump bids especially ;)

I'm not a fan of a number of aspects of this system, but it looks very playable. The strong emphasis on showing the degree of the fit immediately is very suited to competitive auctions, at the cost of making your constructive bidding worse in a number of ways. Generally I think that's a good move.

Personally I am not at all a fan of a forcing NT - I play a nonforcing NT in 2/1, but I'd take semiforcing over forcing any day of the week. There are about 5-6 other decisions I'm not a fan of, notably the (probably required) structure for responder's second bid after having started with a forcing 1NT, but by and large this system looks well organised.
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#6 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 01:48

View PostLBengtsson, on 2022-September-25, 22:24, said:

I have no problem with advanced/expert players learning "logical" specific bidding with a few artificial bids thrown in. Most of this seems logical to me, just tightening the meanings of the various bids. Most of it seems fine, unless I have missed something, using a forcing 1NT response to its maximum effect. (I have never liked semi-forcing 1NT in a 5M system.)

I like the way the 2NT response has been expanded and is not just a Jacoby 2NT which, as I see it, is a low probability option. I have never been a great fan of Bergen either, again on a probability basis as you are more likely to have 3 card support than 4 card. So having it semi-constructive (in the invitational sequence) showing a side suit looks better.

I guess the 1 opening and response sequence is similar. It will be interesting to find out if it improves your results with a regular partner, and good luck using it.

I don't ' understand why Bergen raise are only for 5 cards Major
can someone Explain ?
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#7 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 02:51

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-26, 01:48, said:

I don't ' understand why Bergen raise are only for 5 cards Major
can someone Explain ?

Something to do with The Law?
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#8 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 03:58

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-26, 01:48, said:

I don't ' understand why Bergen raise are only for 5 cards Major
can someone Explain ?


I think it is to do with bidding to the level of the fit quickly when a nine card fit has been established. If partner guarentees five spades, responder uses the jump raise to show a weak shapely hand with four card support. If partner could have only four spades, the number of hands where it is suitable for partner to make a weak jump raise is reduced, hence the jump raise is used for game invitational hands.
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#9 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 07:23

The 3x side suit bids seem really infrequent, even worse than a Jacoby 2NT. Maybe there is no other good use, but I doubt it. Incidentally, it is allocated twice (or are the 3x bids two-way, 7-11 or 15+?).

There's other game try structures over 1-2 that are more effective, but it's not a big deal either way. The structure you've posted also makes the wrong hand captain.

2NT 8+ with fit but no upper limit is awkward, but the price you pay for having 2x NF. Suddenly your intermediate and your strong hands need to jump (or go through 1NT), making follows awkward. Because 2NT is unlimited opener has to go slow with extras or lose space on the slam tries, but responder will almost always just have 8-12 or so and leak information on the road to a boring game.
What's the strength range on 1-2NT; 4x? Responder might have only 8, how strong do you need to be to make a slam try?

Throughout the notes I'm running into quite a few situations where one or both hands are still wide ranging in strength. I predict you will have a lot of 'unsolvable' guesses, where you miss game if you pass or voluntarily bid yourself 1 down if you push on.

What is the response structure over, say, 1-2 (6-12, 6(+), 0-1 spades, NF)? Is opener expected to keep the auction going with a so-so 14, even though 6-9 is a lot more frequent than 10-12?

"1NT = all other hands". For my own understanding, this includes (sorted by approximate strength):
  • 5-9 with weak 6 hearts or so-so 5-card suit.
  • 6-9 two-suiters (neither suit a 'very strong 5 card suit').
  • 5-9 HCP, strong 6+ suit or very strong 5 card suit, 2.
  • 6+ HCP, three-suiter (e.g. 1(543))
  • 6-12 HCP, strong 6+ suit or very strong 5 card suit, 2.
  • 6-12 HCP, strong 6+ suit or very strong 5 card suit, 2.
  • 6-13 ish balanced or semibalanced with 1-2 spades.
  • 10+ HCP, 5(+) hearts.
  • 13+, natural clubs (5+).
  • 13+, natural diamonds (5+).
  • 14+ balanced or semibalanced with 1-2 spades.
I think there's more I have missed, but these are the hand types that stood out on a first reading. I'm not looking forward to having to disambiguate these possibilities without getting too high.

In the responses to 1-1NT the text talks about an "ordinary opening hand" - what is the upper limit on the strength of that hand? In standard bidding the limit is approximately a good 17, and this is an infamous weak point of unlimited opening bids. But, peeking ahead a bit, there's only one response for 6-10 and it claims '6-10 balanced, usually 2 but may be 3 and 4333 shape.'. What are you doing with all the other 6-10 hands in the 1NT answer? When, if ever, do you pass the 2 or 2 rebid?
In a similar vein, standard the 2M rebid by responder shows a tightly limited hand (usually 5-7 HCP or so). How will opener know when to bid on opposite 6-10 potential misfit? Meanwhile responder can still have hearts. I think Gazzilli would potentially solve some of this, but I do think 1NT is overloaded to the point where you should expect rebid issues. It's also awkward that responder has no way to raise opener if they choose responder's long(er) minor suit in a (semi)balanced hand.
Having to bid 2 with weak hands with long hearts also really irks me.

The issues seem worse still on the auction 1-1NT; 2-?. Folding all the 6-12 HCP hands into two bids (three if we include 'pass') means opener will often be stuck on the third round.

Compared to standard this seems to lose a lot of ability to stop at the 2-level, since you need a handful of forcing bids to disentangle the strong options in 1NT. Nominally you win some ability to stop at the 2-level since the direct 1-2x is NF, but because of the wide range I'm not sure how often you can comfortably pass this.


In standard, or when using Bart, Lisa, Gazzilli or some other tool, you can limit one or both hands relatively early after 1M-1NT, confirming whether you are looking for a partscore, game or potentially more. I don't like the forcing 1NT because it breaks this to a large degree, and this structure goes one step further and practically gives up playing below 2. Maybe in a competitive world that isn't so bad, but I also don't see upsides compared to standard 2/1. You still have to jump with almost all strong hands, and the raise structure also has room for improvement. All things considered I think this is an interesting but inefficient bidding system.
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#10 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 10:25

View PostAL78, on 2022-September-26, 03:58, said:

I think it is to do with bidding to the level of the fit quickly when a nine card fit has been established. If partner guarentees five spades, responder uses the jump raise to show a weak shapely hand with four card support. If partner could have only four spades, the number of hands where it is suitable for partner to make a weak jump raise is reduced, hence the jump raise is used for game invitational hands.

thank you very much !
I forgot the obsession of TT Total trick
because some ARTIFICIAL system
show 4 cards Major with a Major Always First (MAFIA)
DO USE THE 3 of major as nonconstructive .
but this is of topic
Michel
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#11 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2022-September-27, 16:00

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-26, 01:48, said:

I don't understand why Bergen raises are only for 5 cards Major
can someone Explain ?

Bergen raises are unsound over Dutch Acol-like systems (4 card major, strong NT) because you will often preempt to the 3 level when that is simply too high. Over UK Acol-like systems (4 card majors and weak NT) Bergen is playable as Opener will have compensating honour card strength on hands where they lack shape. I recommend reading the first few chapters of Partnership Bidding at Bridge for a more advanced analysis of why this is important and how it affects system design.
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#12 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2022-September-28, 14:45

I'm of the opposite opinion to DavidKok - I think the fit jumps should be even more rare and promise 4 card support, though you'll occasionally lie with 3 card support and a singleton and a maximum. If opener is going to accept with any frequency, you'll sometimes be needing 2 ruffs in dummy to make 10 tricks, and that's hard on a trump lead. (If you're playing weak opponents who don't get the trump lead inference, you can take more chances.) Also, you'll probably make them more like 7-9 or 15+ since a lot of 10-11s with 4 card support and a good side suit are game forces.

I also prefer the 1M-2N structure I play (which has mostly become Seattle flight A standard):

3C - any minimum, after which 3M and 4M are to play, 3D is gf and asks shortness, and everything else is gf and shows shortness
3D - non-minimum, no shortness
3H - non-minimum, club shortness
3S - non-minimum, diamond shortness
3N - non-minimum, other major shortness
4X - minimum in high cards, but distributional enough to play game opposite an invitational hand
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