[david_c]

awm, on Jun 27 2005, 08:03 AM, said:

(2) Suppose you find out that opener has only 3-card support. Can you determine additional info about opener's hand such that you can evaluate whether to play 3NT or 4M (on the moysian)? For example, knowledge of opener's singleton (if any) would seem to be critical in this decision process.

If you do play a 2♠ or 2NT relay, then opener's responses will usually identify whether he has a singleton, so for example:

1♦:1♠,2♠:2NT -

3♣ = shows 4 clubs --> shortage in hearts
3♦ = shows 6 diamonds
3♥ = shows 4 hearts --> shortage in clubs
others = 4-card spade support

This is the natural version, and it doesn't cater for opener raising with 3 cards in a balanced hand. If you do raise with this type of hand, it's probably better to play a natural 2NT. (But I'd still want to have some sort of relay available, perhaps 3om as an artificial GF.)

[Gerben42]

I raise on 3 cards only if I have a singleton.

Then 2M+1 asks partner about his distribution.

2M+2 = low single (then 2M+3 asks 3- or 4-card support)
2M+3 = high single (then 2M+4 asks 3- or 4-card support)
2M+4 = 5422
3M = balanced minimum
3NT = balanced maximum

Other bids are long suit trial bids.

[inquiry]

helene_t, on Jun 27 2005, 04:26 AM, said:

I wonder if
1♦-1♠
2♠-3♦
should be forcing. It probably is. If so, is there any way to stop in 3♦ (via 2NT, for example?)

I play this auction (1m-1M-2M-3m) as non-forcing, but invitational. I have stopped in 3m many times. This probably addresses awm's concern as well, as it deals with 1m-1M-2m-2NT, where 2NT is stronger than this invitational 3m raise. It hardly makes sense to play this 3m as forcing if you use 2NT inquiry.

1m-1M-2M-3m, opener passes with most hands with only three card support for the major, and bids 3/4 of the Major with four card suit, depending upon values. Pass is not forced on opener with three card support, however. For me, 3NT would probalby not be an option (has been so far).

On 1m-1M-2M-2NT, opener has a few options available.

• 3♣ = 3 card support (even if diamond opened). This is presumably forcing EVEN if clubs was first bid suit, because if opener was willing to stop in 3m opposite this hand, he would bid 3m.
  
• 3♦ maximum and four card support for major (even if diamonds was opened, obvioulsy game forcing,
  
• 3M = minimum and four card support,
  
• 3OM = maximum for 2M and splinter in major with three card support
  
• 3NT = maximum and splinter in other minor with 3 card support
  
• 4m = splinter in other major, four card support
  
• 4om = splinter, four card support

Over 3♣, responder bids 3 of the major as a signoff. He bids 3OM showing value location (forcing), and he bids 3♦ (even if diamonds was the first bid suit) to invite game in the major or minor. Opener rebids 3M with a I am really sorry I opened hand, while openers 4♣ and 4♦ are now splinters (but not max), and 3NT is suggestion of contract with stopper in OM, 3OM shows general values, but no stopper in this major, 4M shows 3226 hand.

The downside is you can't play 2NT, as others have pointed out. But 2NT is not a great contract, especially if partner raises 1M here with unbalanced hand. It turns out these generally play better in the 4-3 major fit, or the minor 5-2, 5-3, or 6-2, 6-3 fit.

This has proven to be very playable, and with the splinter bids mixed in, pinpoints when moysian would be preferred to 3NT.

[whereagles]

mikestar, on Jun 27 2005, 05:20 AM, said:

whereagles, on Jun 26 2005, 11:26 AM, said:

mikestar, on Jun 26 2005, 05:56 AM, said:

The three card raise is a normal part of bidding in most natural systems

I disagree. That sort of 3 card raise is advocated by no system that I know of. (But it doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. I actually like it a lot.)

The first time I saw 3 card raises mentioned was in Robson/Segal's competitive bidding book, and there the idea was to help a responder with 5 cards in case opps protect the bidding later.

I should have said "most natural North American systems", I don't have the expertise about what they're playing in Europe/Asia/etc.

Well, if 3-card raises are normal in Acol and sayc, then it's probably me then who didn't yet read too much about systems... LOL

[helene_t]

whereagles, on Jun 27 2005, 03:51 PM, said:

Well, if 3-card raises are normal in Acol and sayc, then it's probably me then who didn't yet read too much about systems... LOL

It has more to do with style than with system. Allthough it could be argued that playing a weak 1NT makes it less attractive to raise with three.

[MickyB]

I agree Helene, I used to love weak NT for making 1m:1M, 2M promise extra values until I realised that the 3145 12 counts needed to raise and didn't have extras! When playing Acol I try not to make a single raise with only 3 trumps unless I have about 14 points, but some hands just *have* to

[temp3600]

Thank you all very much for your replies !