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BIDING when oponet make a T/O Double what do you bid when partner pass the T/o double

#1 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-20, 10:13



the double is an off shape double promising 2+cards in Diamond and 14+ HCP
1 is Herbert negative promising 0-6(7) HPC any shape

what message you get from both pass of partner ?
what is your rebid ?
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#2 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-September-20, 13:20

It’s normal for partner to ignore the double if he has a hand that would respond 1M to 1D, so he won’t have 4S and (depending on your partnership responding style) 5 or 6+ hcp.

It’s normal for 1N to show around 8-10 with side values and no major, so he won’t have that

If you play that redouble shows 10+ (which used to be standard but isn’t anymore) then he doesn’t have that

It’s normal to raise diamonds with a weak hand and a fit. How many diamonds he needs depends on how many diamonds you promised. If, as is still pretty standard but far from universal, you’d open 1D with 4=4=3=2 then he needs, usually 5+ to raise or 4 with a ruffing value. So he won’t have those hands.

If you play weak jump shifts over the double, he won’t have that

So you can see that the best way of visualizing his hand is by elimination.

Since he won5 have values and spades, there’s little point in bidding 1S.

But it’s losing bridge to pass. You have long diamonds and distribution. You want partner to compete with a fit…either to push them too high or to find a good save or to win a part score battle or to make it difficult for LHO to describe his hand.

You choices appear to be 2D or 3D. I opt for 3D. I’m seduced by the diamond 10….I’m not joking….that 10 is a very important card if partner doesn’t have a fit for diamonds.

I would bid only 2D if red v white and if 1H were natural but 3D at all other vulnerabilities. Is this always safe? No….but I think one needs to make life difficult for the opps.

The fact that they play 1H as artificial is great. That style was popular many years ago…members of the Blue Team played it for years. Very few good players use it these days. I’ve played a fair amount of high level international bridge and never seen it played. I think it a terrible convention….and look what 3D does to them. Fit is as important as hcp and 3D preempts their ability to find a fit….

Indeed, the fact that they play this outdated convention makes bidding 3D even more obvious
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#3 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-September-20, 13:47

View Postmikeh, on 2022-September-20, 13:20, said:

It’s normal for partner to ignore the double if he has a hand that would respond 1M to 1D, so he won’t have 4S and (depending on your partnership responding style) 5 or 6+ hcp.

It’s normal for 1N to show around 8-10 with side values and no major, so he won’t have that

If you play that redouble shows 10+ (which used to be standard but isn’t anymore) then he doesn’t have that

It’s normal to raise diamonds with a weak hand and a fit. How many diamonds he needs depends on how many diamonds you promised. If, as is still pretty standard but far from universal, you’d open 1D with 4=4=3=2 then he needs, usually 5+ to raise or 4 with a ruffing value. So he won’t have those hands.

If you play weak jump shifts over the double, he won’t have that

So you can see that the best way of visualizing his hand is by elimination.

Since he won5 have values and spades, there’s little point in bidding 1S.

But it’s losing bridge to pass. You have long diamonds and distribution. You want partner to compete with a fit…either to push them too high or to find a good save or to win a part score battle or to make it difficult for LHO to describe his hand.

You choices appear to be 2D or 3D. I opt for 3D. I’m seduced by the diamond 10….I’m not joking….that 10 is a very important card if partner doesn’t have a fit for diamonds.

I would bid only 2D if red v white and if 1H were natural but 3D at all other vulnerabilities. Is this always safe? No….but I think one needs to make life difficult for the opps.

The fact that they play 1H as artificial is great. That style was popular many years ago…members of the Blue Team played it for years. Very few good players use it these days. I’ve played a fair amount of high level international bridge and never seen it played. I think it a terrible convention….and look what 3D does to them. Fit is as important as hcp and 3D preempts their ability to find a fit….

Indeed, the fact that they play this outdated convention makes bidding 3D even more obvious


Interesting analysis, I wouldn't have thought of 3 and would bid 2 as I would have thought 3 shows a strong hand, something like close to a maximum 1-suit opening or equivalent playing strength, bearing in mind partner could have little in the way of useful cards.

If a jump bid in the suit can show an intermediate hand with a good suit, what do you do with a maximum and the same shape, for example adding at least an ace to the given hand?
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-September-20, 13:59

I’d double 1H. That cannot possibly be penalty….how can I have a hand that thinks it can take 7 tricks against 1H. Given that 1H is artificial (again, thank you, opps, for playing such a sub-optimal method), the double isn’t even ‘takeout’ as such. It just shows a good hand unable to bid 1N (good 18+) or 1S or any number of diamonds….then when I later bid diamonds, I have described my hand.

I suppose it could show hearts, but why? Why show hearts when partner cannot have sufficient hearts and sufficient strength to warrant bidding to show west my shape?


Bidding is difficult. Competitive bidding even more so. It’s important to bear in mind, in competitive auctions, that one has goals in addition to those we have in unobstructed auctions. We obviously still want to find our best spot but, in competitive auctions, especially when partner is weak, we also want to be difficult to play against
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#5 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2022-September-20, 18:44

View PostAL78, on 2022-September-20, 13:47, said:

Interesting analysis, I wouldn't have thought of 3 and would bid 2 as I would have thought 3 shows a strong hand, something like close to a maximum 1-suit opening or equivalent playing strength, bearing in mind partner could have little in the way of useful cards.

If a jump bid in the suit can show an intermediate hand with a good suit, what do you do with a maximum and the same shape, for example adding at least an ace to the given hand?


(Note GiB has this programmed "wrong".)

My preference as a default rule in this position is that all hands with more than a minimum in high card strength must start with double or NT or a cue bid (here there is no cue bid). Everything else is distribution, and the higher you bid the more distributional but not more high card strength.
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#6 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-20, 22:45

there real sequence



East
South
West
North
Spade ♠
J 62
A T 3
Q 987
K 54
Heart ♥
Q J 43
965
K T
A 872
Diamond ♦
72
943
A K J T 65
Q 8
Club ♣
Q 876
J 542
9
A K T3





Bid
P
1 H
1S
1NT
Meaning

F
4+S
balanced
Point

0-8
12+
14-17
Note




copying table diint work
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#7 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-20, 22:54

the real sequence
East pass
South open 1 Fert promising 13 cards (0-8 HCP)
West bid 1 to show 4+ 0-3 and 12+ HCP
North bid 1 NT to show a balanced hand of 14-17 HCP in hope that partner have a long suit
East pass he have nothing to propose and 5 HCP with Quack
South pass
and East decide to pass
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-September-20, 23:01

This is intended for interesting hands

Posting a ‘problem’ that is based upon both pairs playing methods that very few, if any, readers here know, understand, or want to understand is, to me at least, not at all interesting

There is a sub forum intended for unusual system issues. It’s rarely read but I suggest you post these sorts of hands there
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#9 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-21, 06:08

View Postmikeh, on 2022-September-20, 23:01, said:

This is intended for interesting hands

Posting a ‘problem’ that is based upon both pairs playing methods that very few, if any, readers here know, understand, or want to understand is, to me at least, not at all interesting

There is a sub forum intended for unusual system issues. It’s rarely read but I suggest you post these sorts of hands there

thank you !
if i understand you corecetly I am supposed to pass the post in a diferent forum ?
how am I supposed to do that?
ask the moderator to move the post in the apropriate forum ?
michel
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#10 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2022-September-21, 15:26

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-20, 22:45, said:

there real sequence



East
South
West
North
Spade ♠
J 62
A T 3
Q 987
K 54
Heart ♥
Q J 43
965
K T
A 872
Diamond ♦
72
943
A K J T 65
Q 8
Club ♣
Q 876
J 542
9
A K T3





Bid
P
1 H
1S
1NT
Meaning

F
4+S
balanced
Point

0-8
12+
14-17
Note




copying table diint work

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-20, 22:54, said:

the real sequence
East pass
South open 1 Fert promising 13 cards (0-8 HCP)
West bid 1 to show 4+ 0-3 and 12+ HCP
North bid 1 NT to show a balanced hand of 14-17 HCP in hope that partner have a long suit
East pass he have nothing to propose and 5 HCP with Quack
South pass
and East decide to pass

So, something like

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#11 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-26, 11:00

View Postnullve, on 2022-September-21, 15:26, said:

So, something like


Thank you1
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