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Which maxim?

#1 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 00:34

6-5 come alive, or stay low with a misfit?


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#2 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 02:11

North should have roughly 7 playing tricks vulnerable so South with 3 quick tricks needs to come alive
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 02:20

View Postmw64ahw, on 2022-June-16, 02:11, said:

North should have roughly 7 playing tricks vulnerable so South with 3 quick tricks needs to come alive


I know very few people that wouldn't open x, x, KQJTxxx, Jxxx where 3 might be too many, but he could also have x, QJx, AJ109xxx, xx where 4 is great and you might conceivably make 6 although you wouldn't want to be in it.

Tough hand.

Also tough decision if you do bid which major to choose, 3 is likely to bury the heart suit, 3 would allow partner to bid 3 with no heart fit and Kx/Qxx in spades.
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#4 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 03:39

The question is, what would partner do over a 3 bid?

It appear to me it is a guess as to whether partner has a fit in one of the majors or is stacked in clubs and diamonds. I'm tempted to bid 3 and if partner goes back to diamonds, bid 4. It will either work beautifully or be a train wreck. Is it IMPS or MP?

The argument for treating it as a misfit is that if partner did have three of a major, the opponents likely have ten clubs and half the HCP between them and couldn't find a bid, which makes it slightly more likely partner has three or four clubs.
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#5 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 04:00

View PostAL78, on 2022-June-16, 03:39, said:

Is it IMPS or MP?

Originally IMPs, but it's probably an equally awkward (but interesting) question at MP too.
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#6 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 04:12

We are red/white and partner opens 3 in first seat. You are vulnerable, so if game is there to be bid you should try for it. I would bid 3 (though I would preference a stronger suit AJ10xxx) and then 4. I think there are hand shapes where even 5 might be the best contract. As for 3NT it is a misfit so that is off the radar.

In the end, I think all comes down to what style of pre-empt your partner plays. I think there is also a cool bid option by "Passing" smoothly. The ops. will need to think carefully about balancing, and they might find in a bad place if they bid. Though I always think 6/5 hands should enter the auction on some level, and with 3 quick honor tricks I am not going to be "cool" and I will bid.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 06:42

I would certainly bid 3.
If you don't have an agreement, you don't have an illegal agreement. Except in the ACBL, where apparently you can have an agreement even if you don't have one :) --- Blackshoe
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 08:33

I think it’s a completely different problem at mps than at imps. At mps I want a plus score or, if one is not available, the smallest minus possible. At imps I am happy to risk ending up in a worse position than 3D if there is a reasonable (even if less than 50%) chance of winning a game bonus.

At mps I expect to make 3D much of the time. I expect 3 tricks in my hand plus the presence of a stiff club means they probably have to play trump for us…imagine a high club lead…now they either allow a club ruff or opening leader has to play trump which will usually be good for us.

At mps I’m willing to look silly (missing a cold game) if I feel that passing is the most likely route to a plus score or the smallest minus.

That’s not to say that I’m a passer…just that my thinking is very different than at imps.

At imps I consider it extremely bad to pass 3D. It’s not impossible that the opps might balance but I suspect one would be waiting for a very long time before it happens. As for their not bidding clubs….some pairs play non leaping Michael’s so won’t be bidding 4C without a side 5 card major, which is improbable. And natural club bidders require a pretty good hand to overcall at the 4 level. So passing because they may bid is, imo, an attempt to justify a poor pass.

As for what to bid, 3H is aiming for a tiny target….that either partner has 3 card support or has Hxx in spades and will bid 3S.

Meanwhile if he raises, you may be in a 5-2 fit when a 6-2 spade fit was available in spades, and since a club lead is probable, we’re likely in the wrong suit

I’m bidding 3S. This won’t bury hearts unless partner raises, and then I’m happy the opps don’t know my shape. If partner doesn’t raise spades, 4H comes next.

I confess I’d do the same at both mps and imps, but I consider it automatic at imps and borderline at mps.
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#9 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 14:23

As you can probably guess partner held - 92 AQJT874 Q752 and the only making contract was 3.

I did go the 3 - 4 route, though actually partner bid 4 over 3 which perhaps is a sign that you should give up and sign off in 4.

Bidding is most likely right - I haven't run any numbers though I do wonder what the odds say in terms of the likelihood on finding a fit (and a fit may still not make game).
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 15:13

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-June-16, 14:23, said:

As you can probably guess partner held - 92 AQJT874 Q752 and the only making contract was 3.

I did go the 3 - 4 route, though actually partner bid 4 over 3 which perhaps is a sign that you should give up and sign off in 4.

Bidding is most likely right - I haven't run any numbers though I do wonder what the odds say in terms of the likelihood on finding a fit (and a fit may still not make game).


You have my sympathy, even at MP.
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#11 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 16:10

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-June-16, 14:23, said:

As you can probably guess partner held - 92 AQJT874 Q752 and the only making contract was 3.

I did go the 3 - 4 route, though actually partner bid 4 over 3 which perhaps is a sign that you should give up and sign off in 4.

Bidding is most likely right - I haven't run any numbers though I do wonder what the odds say in terms of the likelihood on finding a fit (and a fit may still not make game).


To be honest, my gut feeling was partner held something like that, but I would have bid 3 and prepared to bid 4 next time, followed by apologies when it blew up in my face. It is basically an educated guess and if you get it right, you win, get it wrong, you are battered. I'm never a fan of hands like these although at my level, I'll accept that what looks like a guess in at least some cases probably isn't.
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#12 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2022-June-16, 19:45

Even red vs white, that's a 4 preempt in my book.
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-June-17, 01:21

View Postakwoo, on 2022-June-16, 19:45, said:

Even red vs white, that's a 4 preempt in my book.


IMPs possibly, asking for PPP -2 against nothing at MPs
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#14 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2022-June-17, 11:36

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-June-16, 14:23, said:

As you can probably guess partner held - 92 AQJT874 Q752 and the only making contract was 3.

I did go the 3 - 4 route, though actually partner bid 4 over 3 which perhaps is a sign that you should give up and sign off in 4.

Bidding is most likely right - I haven't run any numbers though I do wonder what the odds say in terms of the likelihood on finding a fit (and a fit may still not make game).

4C is not a bid, that makes any sense, what is wrong with repeating your 8 card suit?
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#15 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-June-17, 12:01

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2022-June-17, 11:36, said:

4C is not a bid, that makes any sense, what is wrong with repeating your 8 card suit?

Perhaps because he only had 7?
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#16 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2022-June-17, 12:24

Wait, am I the only one who thinks 3 - 3 - 4 is a cuebid for spades?
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#17 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2022-June-17, 12:27

View Postcherdano, on 2022-June-17, 12:24, said:

Wait, am I the only one who thinks 3 - 3 - 4 is a cuebid for spades?

Actually, if I played it as natural I'd reserve it for 6-5 hands. Certainly not a 7-4 hand with Qxxx of clubs.
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#18 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2022-June-18, 01:21

View Postmikeh, on 2022-June-17, 12:01, said:

Perhaps because he only had 7?

Right, ... I still think, that bidding Qxxx instead of rebidding AQJxxxx is misleading at best.
Nevertheless I have disqualified my self with miscounting the 7 carder.
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Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#19 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2022-June-18, 01:22

View Postcherdano, on 2022-June-17, 12:24, said:

Wait, am I the only one who thinks 3 - 3 - 4 is a cuebid for spades?

No, I would also think, that 4C as cue bid ( more precise shortage ) makes the most sense.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#20 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2022-June-18, 01:24

Hi,

switching the majors making it 6 hearts and 5 spades would make the hand even tougher.
I would bid my 6 carder, planning to play in 4H.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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