[kgr]

Scoring: MP

---

Bidding:
2♥-(P)-3♥-(DBL)
4♥-(P)-P-(DBL)
P-(4♠)-P-(P)
5♥-(P)-P-(DBL)

2♥: 5 card ♥ - 4+ card m and weak
3♥: preempt (mostly 4 card ♥)

5♥ is not that bad because opps can make 6♣.

I was sitting South here.
North should bid 4♦ instead of 4♥. We don't have an agreement about this, but 4♦ can not mean anything else then: "I have a very offense hand for my 2♥ opening with good ♥ and ♦ and I want to save to 5♥. But with my 4♦ bid you know it all and you can decide now".
...I will need to make a translated summary of Robson-Segal's partnership bidding for my partner.

[hotShot]

Notice that you have a 9♥-8♦ = 17 card double fit and opps have a 10♣-7♠=17 card double fit.

If your partner tells you about your double fit, your opps will know that they have some sort of double fit too, and they might bid 6♣ with confidence.

Information here helps opps more than you.

[kgr]

hotShot, on Jun 14 2005, 01:16 PM, said:

Notice that you have a 9♥-8♦ = 17 card double fit and opps have a 10♣-7♠=17 card double fit.

If your partner tells you about your double fit, your opps will know that they have some sort of double fit too, and they might bid 6♣ with confidence.

Information here helps opps more than you.

Not sure about that.
If partner bids ♦ then the opps know that my partner has ♦. They don't know what I have and so they don't know about the double fit.

[ochinko]

hotShot, on Jun 14 2005, 06:16 AM, said:

Notice that you have a 9♥-8♦ = 17 card double fit and opps have a 10♣-7♠=17 card double fit.

If your partner tells you about your double fit, your opps will know that they have some sort of double fit too, and they might bid 6♣ with confidence.

Information here helps opps more than you.

I'm on the same page here. Clarifying the hand from North should be done only after a strong ask from partner (2NT).

Also, 3H from South is too timid. If he's prepared to go to 4H anyway, the time to bid them is now, not later. Can't wait for better vulns. With only 2 or 3 small spades I might even bid 5H instead of 3.

Petko

[kgr]

Jlall, on Jun 14 2005, 03:52 PM, said:

Why would north bid again after preempting. Let alone bid again twice. He relinquishes captaincy after he preempts. You note that 6C makes, I would like to note that your preempts had worked and the opps were in 4S.

I didn't like to see my parnter bidding twice after he opened a preempt.
However the 4H bid did work and maybe that first bid was correct, considering his hand was more offensive then I could expect.
Suppose you were the opener and you choose to bid again: Would you bid 4D (so you partner can make the final decission) or would you bid 4H (because you don't want to give too much info to your opps).

[Echognome]

4♥ was right because you had the diamond fit. If someone wants to gamble with a pressure bid on this auction it should be South, not North. I think one view per hand is enough. I'd personally consider opening the North hand with 1♥ (although only playing limited openings with a regular partner). Once I decide to open it as a preempt I've bid my hand unless partner asks me for more info.

[pigpenz]

I might have tempted 5♥ as south at my first oppurtunity

[P_Marlowe]

kgr, on Jun 14 2005, 10:02 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 14 2005, 03:52 PM, said:

Why would north bid again after preempting. Let alone bid again twice. He relinquishes captaincy after he preempts. You note that 6C makes, I would like to note that your preempts had worked and the opps were in 4S.

I didn't like to see my parnter bidding twice after he opened a preempt.
However the 4H bid did work and maybe that first bid was correct, considering his hand was more offensive then I could expect.
Suppose you were the opener and you choose to bid again: Would you bid 4D (so you partner can make the final decission) or would you bid 4H (because you don't want to give too much info to your opps).

Hi,

considering that 2H will normaly be trash at this colours,
4H by opener seems right, but only if the 3H raise always
promises at least 4 cards.
Taking your notes, partner needs to to take into account a
raise made on 3 cards, and now the 4H bid, let alone the 5H
bid is just undisciplined.
That's why given the colours a direct 4H bid instead of the single
raise would be my choice as responder, because I would like to
suggest a sacrifice against a slam, maximizing the pressure.
And from responders view, slam is odds on, because of the trash
partner will usually have.

Over 4S opener can and probably should bid 5D as a lead director
and as a discriptive bid, it wont help you here, but it may on a other
hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cherdano]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 14 2005, 10:18 PM, said:

kgr, on Jun 14 2005, 10:02 AM, said:

However the 4H bid did work and maybe that first bid was correct, considering his hand was more offensive then I could expect.
Suppose you were the opener and you choose to bid again: Would you bid 4D (so you partner can make the final decission) or would you bid 4H (because you don't want to give too much info to your opps).

Hi,

considering that 2H will normaly be trash at this colours,
4H by opener seems right, but only if the 3H raise always
promises at least 4 cards.
Taking your notes, partner needs to to take into account a
raise made on 3 cards, and now the 4H bid, let alone the 5H
bid is just undisciplined.
That's why given the colours a direct 4H bid instead of the single
raise would be my choice as responder, because I would like to
suggest a sacrifice against a slam, maximizing the pressure.
And from responders view, slam is odds on, because of the trash
partner will usually have.

Over 4S opener can and probably should bid 5D as a lead director
and as a discriptive bid, it wont help you here, but it may on a other
hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

In my view the whole concept about 3♥ promising this or that is wrong. It could be based on 2 card support if responder has defense and wants to push opponents into a non-making game. It could be a normal competitive raise, or it could have 5-6 card support where responders thinks that showing the big fit will push opponents into a making slam. That's why opener isn't allowed to bid again.

Btw, I don't understand East's second pass. He has a 6-loser hand, and a likely double fit opposite a partner who could make a vulnerable takeout double at the 3-level.

Arend

[mike777]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 14 2005, 04:18 PM, said:

Hi,

considering that 2H will normaly be trash at this colours,
4H by opener seems right, but only if the 3H raise always
promises at least 4 cards.

With kind regards
Marlowe

I open 1H.
Please see my other forum arguments that opening at one level can apply pressure and sometimes more pressure on opp's bidding as opening fancy pants weak 2 bids.

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on Jun 14 2005, 04:37 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 14 2005, 04:18 PM, said:

Hi,

considering that 2H will normaly be trash at this colours,
4H by opener seems right, but only if the 3H raise always
promises at least 4 cards.

With kind regards
Marlowe

I open 1H.
Please see my other forum arguments that opening at one level can apply pressure and sometimes more pressure on opp's bidding as opening fancy pants weak 2 bids.

Hi,

I think opening 1H is a very good option,
because of the colours.
Pass is also an option, one should consider,
intending to test opponents defence against
2 suited overcalls.
If playing specific 2 suited overcalls, this choice
gets still more attractive.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I dont play fancy two level ovecalls myself.

[P_Marlowe]

[quote name='cherdano' date='Jun 14 2005, 04:33 PM'] [quote name='P_Marlowe' date='Jun 14 2005, 10:18 PM'] In my view the whole concept about 3[he] promising this or that is wrong. It could be based on 2 card support if responder has defense and wants to push opponents into a non-making game. It could be a normal competitive raise, or it could have 5-6 card support where responders thinks that showing the big fit will push opponents into a making slam. That's why opener isn't allowed to bid again.

Btw, I don't understand East's second pass. He has a 6-loser hand, and a likely double fit opposite a partner who could make a vulnerable takeout double at the 3-level.

Arend [/quote]
I suppose, this is a matter of style and partnership
aggreement.
If you raise with only two card support, you will sometimes
run in a heavy penalty pas, espesially if you hold defence,
because in this case, they wont have a game their way.

Playing hide and seek with your opponents may work,
but I prefer the pressure coming from taking away their
space.
If they double and the auction comes back to them on the
4/5 level, they will have a hard time.
Sometimes they will get it right, sometimes not.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Regarding bidding again by the premptor, this is not a
popular treatment, but you may look at some auction given
by Klinger and / or Pamela Granovetter were they recomment
bidding again. This are very specific auction, but they exist.

[whereagles]

Jlall, on Jun 14 2005, 05:33 PM, said:

Echognome, on Jun 14 2005, 12:06 PM, said:

Once I decide to open it as a preempt I've bid my hand unless partner asks me for more info.

Agree totally

Disagree. Partially. In some cases the preempter MAY have something extra and relevant to say, especially if you play a fairly undisciplined style.

In the case at hand there is perhaps a case for 4 DIAMONDS (showing 55 and goodish suit) after RHOs double. But under no circumstances would I push it higher than that.

[HeartA]

Jlall, on Jun 14 2005, 08:52 AM, said:

Why would north bid again after preempting. Let alone bid again twice. He relinquishes captaincy after he preempts. You note that 6C makes, I would like to note that your preempts had worked and the opps were in 4S.

totally agree.

[bearmum]

HeartA, on Jun 23 2005, 04:40 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 14 2005, 08:52 AM, said:

Why would north bid again after preempting. Let alone bid again twice. He relinquishes captaincy after he preempts. You note that 6C makes, I would like to note that your preempts had worked and the opps were in 4S.

totally agree.

Me 2

Don't open a weak 2 if you want to bid again voluntarily(ie if NOT forced to do so by your partner )