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NORTH'S SECOND BID 2 s

#1 User is offline   maris oren 

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Posted 2022-January-18, 16:54



Partner plays north. opens 1 . we play short clubs. I, south, respond 1 . Is N second bid of 2 correct?
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#2 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-January-18, 17:43

Right shape. Wrong strength. If you have xx QT8x KJxx Txx (or worse, xx QT8xx KJxx Tx!) like the auction suggests you do, where are you going? Everything is too high, and 3 will be uncomfortable even if it isn't doubled. Note that the double strongly increases the chances that there's a 4-x spade break.

North should bless her RHO. He has given her the easiest pass in the world, which tells partner more than 1-X-1-p; 1 does. If partner actually has cards or club support, she can double or bid. Otherwise, while I know that it's almost always wrong to let them play 1NT white at matchpoints, at least here we know our defence.

Many players who play "short club" (meaning "3 or 4=4=3=2") talk themselves into this kind of bidding because "but partner will think I have 2!" And, frankly, many partners of "short club" players will refuse to show delayed club support because "what if partner has 2?" even in auctions where it's obvious there's a fit our way, and it's likely clubs.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-January-18, 17:48

No

Two points here.

After opening, North has a minimum hand with no fit so should pass. South heard the opening so North shouldn’t worry about south thinking North has less than an opening hand. If the hand belongs to North-South, trust South to do something intelligent after North passes.

This is true regardless of what 1N meant. It would be true even if west had not passed and was showing a strong balanced hand.

The second point is that west IS a passed hand. I’d want to know what 1N showed.

For me it would be the minors, but I suspect this west doesn’t mean it that way. Bidding 1N on a balanced hand not strong enough to open is extremely bad and nobody beyond a novice would play it that way…but I’d still like to know.

As for being the unbid suits….that makes sense after P 1C P 1S but not after a 1H response, where you might not want to commit to the 2-level…double shows the unbid suits and allows partner to squeak 1S

If, as I suspect, west thought 1N showed spades and diamonds, then 2S is even worse than it already was…and it’s pretty bad already!

A lot of inexperienced players don’t trust partner. Having shown opening bid values, one needs a good reason to bid over 1N. I’d expect 2S to show 5 spades and 6+ clubs. Double would show a big hand with no good heart fit and 2H would be a simple raise. Pass says I opened…please don’t forget that….but I have no reason to bid right now.
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#4 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2022-January-18, 17:52

View Postmikeh, on 2022-January-18, 17:48, said:

The second point is that west IS a passed hand. I'd want to know what 1N showed.

For me it would be the minors, but I suspect this west doesn't mean it that way. Bidding 1N on a balanced hand not strong enough to open is extremely bad and nobody beyond a novice would play it that way…but I'd still like to know.


Mike, I think you missed East's double?

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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-January-18, 19:49

View PostStephen Tu, on 2022-January-18, 17:52, said:

Mike, I think you missed East's double?

Yes, thx
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-January-18, 19:54

Stephen correctly surmised that I missed east’s double. However, it doesn’t actually change my opinion, other than that I no longer need to ask what 1N showed😀

Everything else applies, if not more so. The doubler implies spade length and values, as well as something in hearts, so bidding 2S on a weak suit and a minimum opening hand with no fit for partner is really bad.

More: now I’ve actually seen the auction, east showed roughly opening values and west made a free 2N call so should have 8-10 hcp. Assume 9 for him and 12 for east. That leaves only 6 for partner…..and we have or should have no desire to play in spades at any level and not much to want to play in 3 clubs (although that might be the best spot if south has 4 clubs)
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#7 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2022-January-20, 12:26

No.

2S is a bid that showes reverse strength.
You can weaken the req. for a 2S bid a bit, assuming the suit quality
backs you up, but this is a dead min. opener.

Sometimes you pass and await development.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#8 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2022-January-20, 14:10

The hardest call in bridge is pass.
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-January-20, 14:19

The hardest call in bridge is a pass in time.
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#10 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 05:37

I am not convinced that 2 should show reverse strength. It is rare that one will have reverse strength when everyone else is showing values, and if you have a strong hand, maybe you can double 1NT (assuming that support double doesn't apply here).

I would rather expect a 6th club and/or concentration if strength in the long suits. Something like KQJx-x-xxx-KQJxx may be ok, or at least would have been OK if you were nonvulnerable.
pretty good defense against a grand with no overtricks given away. --- johnu
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#11 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 14:27

View Posthelene_t, on 2022-January-22, 05:37, said:

I am not convinced that 2 should show reverse strength. It is rare that one will have reverse strength when everyone else is showing values, and if you have a strong hand, maybe you can double 1NT (assuming that support double doesn't apply here).

I would rather expect a 6th club and/or concentration if strength in the long suits. Something like KQJx-x-xxx-KQJxx may be ok, or at least would have been OK if you were nonvulnerable.

The auction tells you that you surely do not belong in spades. Your LHO made a takeout double and the subsequent bidding suggests that it was a normal takeout double rather than one based on a very strong hand (say the other minor) too strong to overcall.

The 1N bid not only shows strength but implies at least a semi-balanced hand. I’d expect partner to hold fewer than 4 spades 99% of the time and fewer than 3 often.

So why bid 2S on a minimum misfitting hand?

There’s no rule that one can’t pass when one has shown an opening hand, one has no fit for partner, and the opps have described values that are likely at least as strong as your side’s combined misfitting values

If partner has 4+ clubs, he can always bid if he has values/shape.

I truly don’t understand how one can blithely pay no attention to the information provided to us in this auction.
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 14:31

View Postpescetom, on 2022-January-20, 14:19, said:

The hardest call in bridge is a pass in time.

I often tell advancing players that ‘pass’ is the most under-utilized call in bridge. Alternatively I tell them that they should always keep the ‘magic word’ in mind as an option in unclear situations…the magic word, of course, being ‘pass’

Bridge has tilted very much to aggression over the past 40 years, at a rate that seems to my old eyes to be accelerating. Indeed, in my current partnerships I’m trying to be much more aggressive than I used to be. But good players listen to auctions: especially after the opps are in the auction, aggression has to be tempered with discipline, all the more so on apparent no-fit auctions.

Reserve aggression for shape and fit.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#13 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2022-January-24, 17:45

I don't understand bidding 2 with a reverse hand - wouldn't we just double 1N with that?

I would expect 2 to be a shapely hand (5-6) with decent playing strength but little in hcp.
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