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#1 User is offline   Chris3875 

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Posted 2021-December-28, 01:53


Game played on BBO
2C alerted as 20-22
2D alerted after prompting as Holding or Waiting
3D alerted after prompting as best suit although system card shows Transfers after NT
West bid 4H obviously thinking partner had transferred as per system
LONG, LONG, LONG, LONG delay - East finally bidding 4NT - system card shows Blackwood
All Pass
My opinion, West realised there was a problem after the hesitation.
Any adjustment ?
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#2 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2021-December-28, 03:06

If there really was a long delay - and in a situation like this I’m not inclined to believe a loss of signal, but I don’t know how probable that is in Oz - there’s obvious use of UI. It must be clear for W that neither N nor S has been thinking at this point, so it must have been E. W should have answered with whatever bid indicates three aces, in classical Blackwood that would have been 5 and E would probably have bid 6, which would have gone off one trick.
Deserves W a penalty for the blatant use of UI? I would say so, I would at least throw the Laws book at him or her.
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-December-28, 03:39

Basically agree with Sanst. I would want to know more about their 4nt agreement than 'Blackwood' because I've seen some (GIB) misuse this term to indicate RKCB, and W already showed a hearts fit by super accepting.
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#4 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2021-December-28, 04:01

View Postsanst, on 2021-December-28, 03:06, said:

If there really was a long delay - and in a situation like this I’m not inclined to believe a loss of signal, but I don’t know how probable that is in Oz - there’s obvious use of UI. It must be clear for W that neither N nor S has been thinking at this point, so it must have been E. W should have answered with whatever bid indicates three aces, in classical Blackwood that would have been 5 and E would probably have bid 6, which would have gone off one trick.
Deserves W a penalty for the blatant use of UI? I would say so, I would at least throw the Laws book at him or her.

I simply do not understand why East bid 3 as his second call.

Once West showed 20-22 NT-type hand with his second call East should think that the final contract probably ought to be either 3NT or 5, but which one?
I see no legal way here for East to make West choose, he himself should have selected and bid either 3NT or 5 directly without any more fuss?

Instead he 'invented' his delay as a call for West to make the choice?
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-December-28, 04:38

View Postpran, on 2021-December-28, 04:01, said:

I simply do not understand why East bid 3 as his second call.

Once West showed 20-22 NT-type hand with his second call East should think that the final contract probably ought to be either 3NT or 5, but which one?
I see no legal way here for East to make West choose, he himself should have selected and bid either 3NT or 5 directly without any more fuss?

Instead he 'invented' his delay as a call for West to make the choice?


E could legally make W choose by bidding 3♤ and then whatever indicates diamonds, if they had better agreements. But I don't think diamonds make much sense here: E knows W has at least 16 points in the other three suits, and nothing to ruff.
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#6 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2021-December-28, 05:25

View Postpran, on 2021-December-28, 04:01, said:

I simply do not understand why East bid 3 as his second call.

Neither do I. But he made that call and as a TD you have to decide, given the auction.
I agree with pescetom that you have to know what the answers to 4NT are for this pair. If 5 denotes three of five key cards, E would have had an easy escape. But W certainly deserves an slap on the wrist for the use of UI. And if you’re quite certain that E deliberately paused to convey the message that 4NT was to play, not Blackwood, than this pair should pay a heavy price.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-December-28, 06:09

View Postsanst, on 2021-December-28, 05:25, said:

Neither do I. But he made that call and as a TD you have to decide, given the auction.
I agree with pescetom that you have to know what the answers to 4NT are for this pair. If 5 denotes three of five key cards, E would have had an easy escape. But W certainly deserves an slap on the wrist for the use of UI. And if you’re quite certain that E deliberately paused to convey the message that 4NT was to play, not Blackwood, than this pair should pay a heavy price.


More answers also required, f2f is much more complicated, but on BBO you don't mis-sort your hand, how much did E think he was showing with 3 ? if at least a mild slam invite could 4 have been asking aces ? and could 4N be 1 ? Do they often use offshape 2Ns and what singletons are permissible (ie could this be a nice hand with a stiff A in say a 3145/4144 ?
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#8 User is offline   Chris3875 

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Posted 2021-December-28, 16:19

According to their system card they play standard Blackwood not RCKB. The delay was so long that I ended up (tongue in cheek) typing a few full stops - then typing Oh, was just checking, I thought I was disconnected!
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#9 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2021-December-29, 03:06

View PostChris3875, on 2021-December-28, 16:19, said:

According to their system card they play standard Blackwood not RCKB. The delay was so long that I ended up (tongue in cheek) typing a few full stops - then typing Oh, was just checking, I thought I was disconnected!

If they play 1430 answers, W would have bid 5, still assuming hearts are trumps, which E can legally pass. That can be made, even with an overtrick given the finesses.
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#10 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-December-29, 09:25

  • If the director wasn't called, score stands. If there is no director, then either it's not important enough to care about one unfortunate board (and you should be beating them anyway if this is their calibre) or it's time to find another game where they don't do this.
  • Forget transfers is my bugbear, and this time West pooched East's ability to say 4 diamonds. Maybe not 5, but yeah, still needs help.
  • "2NT system on after 2-2; 2NT" is one of those things that weaker players tend to forget.
  • long tank-4NT means "not blackwood, despite what it looks like". Almost always, anyway.

Luckily, this is not F-t-F, so East has the AI that partner thought it was a transfer without the UI of having announced/Alerted it. She is allowed to guess right.

As a pollee, I think you can see what my answer would be.

As director, I would not in fact trust my beliefs, because I know I'm biased (see 2., but in general) and probably not their standard (I don't tend to forget systems on after 2...2NT any more). I would take the auction (without the long pause) to several players of their level and see if anybody passes. If they don't, I may ask them what a long pause before 4NT might mean (if they're the level of peer that I can expect to understand the question).

So, I probably shouldn't be polled on this one.

But I could easily see this going to 6-1, or 6NT-1, or even 7-2 (surely West gets it by then?) or some weighted average of the two. I highly doubt that there will be any sort of procedural penalty, and I'm quite good at giving PPs for "guessing to pass forcing bids in the face of UI" - this pair almost certainly isn't at the level where there's any chance of purposeful action, and the ruling should be "wake up" enough.

Those saying "the right system would get them there" is irrelevant; the fact that even if they do have the right system and know how to play it (which I would be surprised at) this person forgot at the table.
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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2022-January-02, 23:50

View Postpescetom, on 2021-December-28, 03:39, said:

Basically agree with Sanst. I would want to know more about their 4nt agreement than 'Blackwood' because I've seen some (GIB) misuse this term to indicate RKCB, and W already showed a hearts fit by super accepting.

What difference does this make? Pass isn't a possible response in any form of Blackwood. So West's action is suspicious, and use of UI is the obvious explanation.

#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-January-03, 10:34

View Postbarmar, on 2022-January-02, 23:50, said:

What difference does this make? Pass isn't a possible response in any form of Blackwood. So West's action is suspicious, and use of UI is the obvious explanation.

West isn't getting away with Pass after the obvious and possibly wilful supply of UI by East, so we need to know how "Blackwood" would have gone following their agreements (what precise convention does it indicate and which if any suit is trumps). If it really is vanilla Blackwood 4 Aces (or they do not prove otherwise), then East cannot do better than 6-1. If it is RKCB 0314(), idem. If it is RKCB 1403() or any RKCB() then they get 5= although they aren't escaping a penalty in any case.
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