[badderzboy]

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Opps open 1♥, we play modified Ghestem and I bid 3♣ meaning it as Intermediate overcall in ♣'s but Partner correctly alerts this as ♠ & ♦'s in our system and then bids 3♠'s.

I passed 3♠ as partner has shown a preference and called the director to be ethical but can I bid 4♣ legitimately as I have the UI that I'm a muppet?

Partner had 6♥, 3♣ incl A♣ and 3♠ and A♦ and 3NT/5♣ was laydown!

Steve

This post has been edited by badderzboy: 2005-July-09, 10:10

[FrancesHinden]

You have to bid on, still assuming you've made a jump overcall in clubs. You aren't allowed to be "woken up" by partner's alert.

If partner hadn't alerted, and bid 3S, you would have assumed he had some values with spades.

You would then have a choice between simply raising to 4S or making some sort of slam try. I imagine you are likely to finish in 4S going some number off. Whether it is doubled or not depends on the opponents' hands.

[luis]

You must bid 4♠ if that is doubled you may retreat to 5♣ assuming a bad spade break but you certainly can't pass 3♠ (illegal). Bidding 4♣ is fine as long as your pd continues to 4♦ or 4♠.

Luis

[MickyB]

Do you really have a bid showing ♠+♦ over a 1♦ opener?

A guideline is to bid as though you haven't been "woken up" to your mistake - so in this case you will either raise 3♠ to 4♠ or make a slam try. There's no way you could pull 4♠ doubled to 5♣ - bidding 5♣ is clearly suggested by partner's explanation, so you may only pull if 70% or more of your peers would do so without the UI (i.e. if they knew that 3♣ was an IJO and partner was genuinely long in ♠ and quite possibly short in ♣).

[badderzboy]

Doh, opening bid was 1♥ typo

[pclayton]

I would imagine if you passed 3S or pulled 4S x'd to 5C you'd receive an adjusted score of 4S x'd going down "x". I can even see a draconian AC determining a slam try should be made with this hand and getting the bidding up to at least 5 (dbld of course).

What's interesting to me is what would happen if screens were used and you don't hear partners alert. Could the very existence of the 3S call wake you up? Say it does and you try 4C. Is your pard allowed to 'field' a bidding misunderstanding at that point? Remember, no one has the benefit of alerts, they are merely following a sequence of calls and making a determination based on what may have happened.

[cherdano]

luis, on Jul 9 2005, 12:57 PM, said:

You must bid 4♠ if that is doubled you may retreat to 5♣ assuming a bad spade break but you certainly can't pass 3♠ (illegal).

Do you really think that passing 4♠X is not a logical alternative? I would rather be worried about XX being a logical alternative (I would assume that this is a maximum for an IJO, but I am not so used to them.)

Arend

[cherdano]

pclayton, on Jul 9 2005, 09:01 PM, said:

What's interesting to me is what would happen if screens were used and you don't hear partners alert. Could the very existence of the 3S call wake you up? Say it does and you try 4C. Is your pard allowed to 'field' a bidding misunderstanding at that point? Remember, no one has the benefit of alerts, they are merely following a sequence of calls and making a determination based on what may have happened.

I think he obviously can, unless he has UI from hesitations. Of course, there might be issues of MI...

[MickyB]

England has rules on "fielded misbids" that I never know when to apply...but otherwise yes, I think you can do what you like in that situation with screens.

Then again, once you've done it it becomes an implicit agreement...if 3♣ as either ♣ or ♦+♠ isn't legal where you are playing then you have problems, along with the MI of not mentioning the ♣ "option"...

[Gerardo]

You can bid 4♣, but your partner can't say "Oh, sorry. He has ♣s, not what I said before" so he is bound by his explanation, and can't pass it.

[Flame]

you got to bid 4S, you must not call the director for now.
its very simple, you have to forget partner's alert and explanations.

[Flame]

cherdano, on Jul 9 2005, 03:20 PM, said:

luis, on Jul 9 2005, 12:57 PM, said:

You must bid 4♠ if that is doubled you may retreat to 5♣ assuming a bad spade break but you certainly can't pass 3♠ (illegal).

Do you really think that passing 4♠X is not a logical alternative? I would rather be worried about XX being a logical alternative (I would assume that this is a maximum for an IJO, but I am not so used to them.)

Arend

you are right but maybe you can bid 5c over the double for a different resson.
The lawv allow you to remember your system after you make a mistake, but you are not allowed to do that because of partners alert, but maybe thier double when you are thinking of possible slams is weird enough to ring a bell. Not sure maybe its even a director style question, maybe after the double i would approch him and ask.