[andych]

Playing weak NT (12-14). When opps overcall, is X better as penalty or negative X?

[luke warm]

i prefer penalty, tho many will disagree.. there are ways to continue constructively, but no other way to penalize the opps.. one of the reasons to open a weak nt is to preempt the opps... when they enter and we have the hand, we should have ways to play or penalize, imo

[FrancesHinden]

After a natural overcall, the most common treatment nowadays is take-out, usually holding a doubleton. You are simply very unlikely to hold four trumps once partner has at least two and RHO has (usually) six, sometimes five, and you want to compete.

If instead you want to play it as penalties, I suggest you don't show a trump stack more more likely three trumps.

[han]

I really prefer to play this as negative. One of the most memorable auctions I remember I had when playing mini-1NT and negative doubles, this was the auction:


Part - RHO - Me - LHO
1NT pass pass Dbl
pass 2C Dbl pass
pass Rdbl pass pass!
pass

Partner opened 10-12 notrump, I had an easy pass with 11 HCP's. LHO doubled with a 14-count, RHO had a bad hand and 3-4-3-3 shape. He bid 2C reasoning that he could always redouble later. I had 2 small clubs, and wasn't giong to let them play there. Partner converted with 4 decent clubs, and RHO redoubled for rescue. However, his partner was 3-3-3-4, and after thinking for a LONG time, chose to leave it in! Redoubled down 2 was a great score.

[Double !]

Seems I ran a brief poll about this a while ago. Opinions, if my recollection is close to accurate were relatively split between penalty and negative doubles, with stolen bid double a distant third. I shall try to go back and find the thread.

[Double !]

just checked results:

after overcall of strong NT, 7 played double as penalty, 4 played double as being negative.

over weak (12-14) NT, 6 said that they played double as being negative, 4 said that they played it as being penalty, and, alas, 0 played double as being stolen bid.

[luis]

Takeout, penalty doubles are an endangered bid, will be extinct soon.

[Double !]

A topic that I haven't personally ever seen discussed is whether or not the 1NT bidder is permitted to re-open after a sequence such as 1NT- 2H- p- p- ? given the right shape (eg: 4243). If the answer is YES, then I would suggest that this could be a consideration in determining whether or not to play negative doubles after 1NT -2X-?

[han]

In my partnerships this is considered mandatory, especially at MP.

[Free]

I like them takeout until 2♥. 1NT-(2♠)-Dbl is penalty

[Double !]

IMO, it's the dbl of 2 spades that should be negative because opener can't have a hand to make a re-opening dbl safely. If opener can make re-opening double, then double of 2H overcall perhap can be penalty, dbl of 2C stayman, of 2 diamonds = negative if 2D shows D's.


and.........how do you all play dbls of 2-suited overcalls?

The point? One can't just says neg or pen X's: IMO, it depends on the bid made and its meaning.

[mike777]

Edgar Kaplan often wrote that playing penalty doubles over weak nt was a major advantage of playing weak nt systems. Double often, not just with a trump stack.

[luke warm]

luis, on Jun 18 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

Takeout, penalty doubles are an endangered bid, will be extinct soon.

i believe this is probably true, which helps explain why so many people aren't afraid to enter auctions with crap

[luis]

luke warm, on Jun 18 2005, 08:51 PM, said:

luis, on Jun 18 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

Takeout, penalty doubles are an endangered bid, will be extinct soon.

i believe this is probably true, which helps explain why so many people aren't afraid to enter auctions with crap

I don't think the exctintion of penalty doubles is related to the level of agressiveness in overcalls. People overcall more just because they are more agressive not because they can't be doubled.
Playing takeout doubles you can still make penalty passes and convert pd doubles to penalties.

[pclayton]

Play takeout doubles. Decide how high you are going to play them. I like 2♥, but my pard likes 2♠.

Be careful about trapping, but an astute pard will double when the opportunity is right. Playing a 10-12 NT a few years ago, we were NV vs Vul. Pard opens 1N in 2nd seat and RHO chimes in 2♦. I made a smooth pass with a balanced 16 and pard reopens with a 4=3=3=3 and 11 count. After the 1100 we were both thanking each other.

[FrancesHinden]

Double !, on Jun 18 2005, 01:35 PM, said:

A topic that I haven't personally ever seen discussed is whether or not the 1NT bidder is permitted to re-open after a sequence such as 1NT- 2H- p- p- ? given the right shape (eg: 4243). If the answer is YES, then I would suggest that this could be a consideration in determining whether or not to play negative doubles after 1NT -2X-?

I think it's the other way round.
If you play take-out doubles, then the 1NT bidder should be allowed to re-open.
If you play penalty doubles, then there's much less point in re-opening.

[Chamaco]

Further question:
what do you prefer if playing miniNT (10-12) and opps overcall ?

Pen X or t/o X ?

[fifee]

Chamaco, on Jun 20 2005, 10:11 AM, said:

Further question:
what do you prefer if playing miniNT (10-12) and opps overcall ?

Pen X or t/o X ?

Takeout, we pre empt ourselves with mini NT sometimes, so negative double here will get more mileage than penalty.

[FrancesHinden]

I play all of mini, weak and strong NT with different people (sometimes the same people...) and I play all these doubles as take-out. I don't really see that it matters what range the opening NT was.