[mw64ahw]

A fun hand from last night
How do you open?

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How do you compete?

Spoiler

Of 16 boards 9 opened 1♠, 6 1♦ w. a single Pass!

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The result at one table - can you bid it or even explain the bidding?
NB: the final contract wasn't 4♠ on this table

Spoiler

If you can't see the bidding fully; shown from East
1♠-X-3♥-p
p-3♠-p-4♦
X-4♥-X-p
p-4♠-p-p
X-p-p-5♦
X-6♣-p-p
X-p-p-p

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Other results all South
2x1♠
3x3♠
8x4♠ half of them X
2x5♣

[HardVector]

Just proves my point that the take out double is the most abused and misutilized convention there is. Doubling then bidding 2s does not show a spade suit. When you realize you can't do that, and 2s directly doesn't show spades, and you throw up at the idea of bidding 3n, you are left with the only thing you can do...pass. So far, the best hand I have passed in direct seat after an opener had 21 hcp in it. Passing does NOT deny an opening hand.

[Winstonm]

I would open 1S, reluctantly - not due to the poor spades but because of the Qx in clubs.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1S.

We are 55, and spades is the top suit.

The main problem for South is, that E/W are green, his best strategy is to give up
as fast as he can, ... which is easier said than done, I was there, I failed to heed this advice
myself.
He should also take into account after West makes a bid, that there is nothing left for North.
His aim should be to get plus. He achieved it, although lucky.

He should not ask for add. support fro Fortuna for the next couple of boards.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mycroft]

No idea what my competition action is with that first spoilered hand, but the auction presented in the second spoiler screams "partner, they clearly psyched their opening, please believe me", far past when opener's and partner's actions should have triggered a rethink. Plus falling well afoul of Simon's "bad players overbid good hands" (frequently getting away with it because their poor partners "underbid their bad hands").

I probably would hope to get away with "pass and bid spades next round". Likely at the 3 level, it seems; okay. Do I think I can make 4 in my own hand if East didn't psych? Do I pay off to a psych and miss game? Do I know East well?

[mikeh]

The original hand is a systemic nightmare for most standard - based methods, in which 2/1 is included. If one opens 1S, then over 2H one has in insoluble problem if 3D shows extras, as it would for me. I often say that 1S followed by 2S over a 2/1 response could be Jxxxx. Now I have to say it could be 10xxxx, lol.

However, it’s not as if passing is likely to work better on normal layouts.

Some, especially old rubber bridge players (I don’t think there are many young rubber bridge players) would treat this as 4 spades and 5+ diamonds, and that approach has merit. But I wouldn’t do it.

As for LHO, I’d discreetly check the opps’ CC, looking at frequency of psyching.

I’d pass even if they were frequent psychers. The good news is that my shape means one of the other two players is likely to find a call. Then I’ll bid spades…unless partner implies decent clubs. How many spades depends on the auction, but most of the time I will get to make an emphatic statement rather than a cue or splinter.

I see, from the second spoiler, that LHO landed on his feet. Infer that the OP perpetrated that auction. If so, personally I’d be embarrassed to have bid like that…but I’d take the imps, lol.

[fromageGB]

1D
Over their 1S, 2D.

I always need A,K or Q for a 5 card major open. Otherwise I treat as 4. Too many times partner leads K into declarer's AQ, or underleads K.

Edit : btw, I never have played rubber.

[Gilithin]

 mw64ahw, on 2021-November-10, 03:12, said:

The result at one table - can you bid it or even explain the bidding?

1♠ This seems quite reasonable assuming the pair is not playing conservative openings.
X South thinks the hand is too strong to pass and is presumably planning to sell it either as a ♣ 1-suiter or as big and semi-balanced.
3♥ Obviously meant as preemptive but no alert so there is a case for MI.
P Tough to argue with at these colours.
P This shows that East was in on the joke.
3♠ This is where things start going off the rails. Did South think they were showing ♠? Again, no alert is recorded.
P Automatic.
4♦ North is doing their best but it beggars the question as to why they did not alert 3♠.
X East would probably do better to pass here and let N-S guess but they are looking at 4 winners so...
4♥ It's tough to know what is going through South's head at this point. Panic? I would be interested to know how North described this call in the Clarification Period.
X Pointless.
P North seems to be a passenger at this point.
P What else?
4♠ "A perfect auction."
P "I showed my hand twice already."
P "Why did I agree to this? I wonder who I can partner next week instead..."
X "Clearly my spades are way better than expected and those ♦ are surely still worth 4 tricks..."

[Winstonm]

 fromageGB, on 2021-November-10, 15:16, said:

1D
Over their 1S, 2D.

I always need A,K or Q for a 5 card major open. Otherwise I treat as 4. Too many times partner leads K into declarer's AQ, or underleads K.

Edit : btw, I never have played rubber.

I played rubber before I ever heard of imps or match points. Seems I remember reading a book that suggested treating this kind of hand as a 4-card major. Goren probably

[nige1]

mw64ahw 'A fun hand from last night. How do you open?'
+++++++++++++++++++
Over (1♠) ??, I rank
-- Pass = NAT. Risky if RHO psyched. But otherwise makes for simpler auctions.
-- Double = T/O (mw64ahw's choice). Confuses the issue.
-- 3N = NAT usually a good minor, so a bit of a distortion.

Over (1♠) Double (3♥ Weak) Pass (Pass) ??, mw64ahw is still in a quandary but 2 options stand out.
-- 3N = NAT. Least confusion
-- 4!S = NAT. Should be unabmbigous.

Over (1♠) Pass (3♥ Weak) Pass (Pass), I would still be fixed. On a good day I might guess
-- 3N = NAT. A peculiar auction but should be OK.
-- 4!S = NAT. With luck might be be unambiguous.

In such dire circumstances, general principles are
K eep
I it
S imple
S tupid
and
When fixed, stay fixed.

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[Gilithin]

 Winstonm, on 2021-November-10, 15:50, said:

I played rubber before I ever heard of imps or match points. Seems I remember reading a book that suggested treating this kind of hand as a 4-card major.

Back in the days of biddable and rebiddable suits, this was standard procedure. Bidding theory moved on and some of those old concepts got abandoned along the way.

[mw64ahw]

 nige1, on 2021-November-10, 15:53, said:

-- Double = T/O (mw64ahw's choice). Confuses the issue.

Not my choice-we were EW opening 1♠ with South stopping in 3♠

[LBengtsson]

another way to look at this. what suit would you overcall at one level if the opps. opened 1♣ if you were not using two suited convention like Ghestem? I would always overcall 1♦.

I think hand is poor other than good ♦ suit so no reluctance to open 1♦. downgrade ♠ suit. If hand was however ♠Q10xxx ♥x ♦AKQJx ♣xx I will always open 1♠ 100% of the time.

[Winstonm]

 LBengtsson, on 2021-November-11, 03:35, said:

another way to look at this. what suit would you overcall at one level if the opps. opened 1♣ if you were not using two suited convention like Ghestem? I would always overcall 1♦.

Suppose you have xxxxx, x, AKQJx, Ax? Do you still overcall 1D? I think you should not. The three principle reasons to overcall are to compete for the partscore, reach our own game, or indicate a lead. Burying the spade suit pretty much eliminates all the reasons except for indicating a lead.

I've always made overcall decisions based on strength of hand - the weaker the hand the better the suit has to be. But with an opening hand and a reason to think game is possible the suit quality takes on a secondary role in the decision of what to bid.

[akwoo]

In the ACBL, weak jump shifts in competition (including after a double) are not alertable.

A bid of opponents suit is generally alertable only if its natural - though some artificial meanings different from the usual artificial meanings are also alertable. (After opponents' 1♠ opening, for example, the nonalertable meaning for 2♠ is hearts and a minor; it was recently changed so that anything else is alertable, and beforehand, the only alertable meaning was the natural one.) It's arguable that a natural 3♠ here ought to be alerted; an artificial one certainly should not be in the ACBL.

[Gilithin]

 akwoo, on 2021-November-12, 22:58, said:

In the ACBL,

Do we have any reason to think this was run under ACBL supervision? Even if it were, I assume such calls are essentially self-alerting and so defenders would get some sort of explanation in the Clarification Period even if they chose not to ask beforehand. Or is delayed disclosure also not part of the ACBL regulations?

[mycroft]

Continuing the side note: as of this year, jump shifts that only show the bid suit are not Alertable, in competition or out, weak, strong or anything in between.

If you care, you need to ask. At the time bid, or in the Clarification period before your partner turns her card over.

For those of you playing real bridge, you can ignore this, of course.