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Dealer: Minor open and Partner makes a fitbid Dealer

#1 User is offline   James_H 

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Posted 2021-November-03, 16:32

Hi All,

I'm trying to get North to open a minor and South to have a 4/5 card minor fit and 5 of another suit in the 9-12 hcp range.

Here is my attempt which is not working correctly.

Please help, J.

# minor openers with fit bid
Nopen = shape(north, any 00xx + any 01xx + any 02xx + any 03xx + any 04xx +
any 10xx + any 11xx + any 12xx + any 13xx + any 14xx +
any 20xx + any 21xx + any 22xx + any 23xx + any 24xx +
any 30xx + any 31xx + any 32xx + any 33xx + any 34xx +
any 40xx + any 41xx + any 42xx + any 43xx + any 44xx) and
losers(north) < 8 and
hcp(north) > 10 and hcp(north) < 20
hcp(south) > 8 and hcp(south) < 14

Dopen = ( (diamonds(north) >= clubs(north) ) and
((shape(south, any 5x4x) and quality(south, spades) > 3) or
(shape(south, any x54x) and quality(south, hearts) > 3) or
(shape(south, any xx45) and quality(south, clubs) > 3) or
(shape(south, any 5x5x) and quality(south, spades) > 3) or
(shape(south, any x55x) and quality(south, hearts) > 3) or
(shape(south, any xx55) and quality(south, clubs) > 3) ) )

Copen = ( (clubs(north) > diamonds(north) ) and
((shape(south, any 5xx4) and quality(south, spades) > 3) or
(shape(south, any x5x4) and quality(south, hearts) > 3) or
(shape(south, any xx54) and quality(south, diamonds) > 3) or
(shape(south, any 5xx5) and quality(south, spades) > 3) or
(shape(south, any x5x5) and quality(south, hearts) > 3) or
(shape(south, any xx55) and quality(south, diamonds) > 3) ) )

Nopen and (Dopen or Copen)
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#2 User is online   paulg 

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Posted 2021-November-03, 16:41

You will get pretty close if you remove every instance of "any ".

For example,

Nopen = shape(north, any 00xx) will give you a hand with two voids and they could be in any suit.

Nopen = shape(north, 00xx) will give you a hand with two major voids and any minor distribution.
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#3 User is offline   James_H 

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Posted 2021-November-03, 16:54

Thanks Paul,

Like you say, pretty close.

Best, James.
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#4 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-November-03, 16:55

I'm not sure - it would help if you told us what is "not correctly" - is it giving wrong hands (example?) or is it just erroring out (what error?) or...?

I think at least you are missing an "and" between the north strength and the south strength in Nopen.
I'd also put parentheses around the HCP sections - it shouldn't matter, but humans will read it better that way.
Similarly, you don't need the outside set of parentheses on Copen and Dopen - and they do confuse a bit.

Non-technical potential issues:
  • The quality queries are additional to the requirements statement. Not sure if that's a problem.
  • Your Nopen will match on all your 1NT openers (and some 2NT if you could have 19). Those won't open a minor. Also, it looks like you're doing something else with all the 20 and 21 counts - Benji Acol?
  • Your opener suit selection will open diamonds on xx33, which commonly opens 1 if outside NT range.
  • Most players will open 13+counts even with 8 losers. If you don't, fine. Otherwise you're looking for something like `((hcp(north) > 12 or (losers(north) < 8 and hcp(north) > 10)) and hcp(north) < 20)` in that slot.


Good luck - this is an interesting question, especially as my most regular partnership also plays this.
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#5 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-November-03, 17:07

You may also want to consider not using shape at all - eg hearts(north)<5 and spades(north)<5 is a way of cutting down many of the combinations instantly.
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#6 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-November-03, 18:18

Or you could just go to playbridge.com which uses the same dealer program but provides a nice GUI.
You can output up to 64 instances of your hands to PDF, LIN or PBN and step through the file to look at makeable contracts using Bridgesolver.

You can also choose specific types of hand from the generated 64 hands and only export those.

With the criteria you set it looks like this:

qx|o1|md|3SJ75HA2DK743CJ932,ST9832HKQ73DQ8CKT,SAKQHT86DAT92C874|rh||ah|Board 1|sv|0|pg|| qx|o2|md|4S72HKJ5DT975CAQ84,SJT93HQ96DJ642C63,SA84HAT83DKQ3C975|rh||ah|Board 2|sv|n|pg|| qx|o3|md|1SA72HQ5DA932C8532,ST6HKT98632DJ87CA,SKJ84HADKT6CQJ974|rh||ah|Board 3|sv|e|pg|| qx|o4|md|2SJ8HKT5DK752CAT72,SAQ642HQ64D83CQ98,S953HA983DACKJ653|rh||ah|Board 4|sv|b|pg|| qx|o5|md|3S43HAJ7DAT95CQ954,S72HQ5DQ87642CKT8,SAJHT84DKJ3CAJ762|rh||ah|Board 5|sv|n|pg|| qx|o6|md|4S8HA987DA954CQ542,SKJ63H53DKQTCAT87,SAQT4HKQT2DJ873C9|rh||ah|Board 6|sv|e|pg|| qx|o7|md|1ST73HAKDT972CQ752,SK652HJ87543DJ6C9,SQ9HQT96DA54CAJ43|rh||ah|Board 7|sv|b|pg|| qx|o8|md|2S8HK53DQJ43CK9754,SJ54HQ7642D872CJ3,SK96HJT9DAT95CAT2|rh||ah|Board 8|sv|0|pg|| qx|o9|md|3SQ975HKD9542CAJT5,SK2H96532DAQ876C2,SA84HQJT7DKCQ9764|rh||ah|Board 9|sv|e|pg|| qx|o10|md|4SAHK4DT7642CQ9764,S863HQJT86D93CKT8,SQJT7H95DAKQJC532|rh||ah|Board 10|sv|b|pg|| qx|o11|md|1S87HADKJT75CQT953,SAKJ95H65DAQ982CJ,SQT2HKQ94D63CAK62|rh||ah|Board 11|sv|0|pg|| qx|o12|md|2S54HAJ9DJT63CK954,SK97HQ7532DQ987CT,SAT62HT84DKCAQ862|rh||ah|Board 12|sv|n|pg|| qx|o13|md|3SQ7HQ72DJ872CAK42,S8652HJ83DKT5CJ76,SK3HK954DA964CQT8|rh||ah|Board 13|sv|b|pg|| qx|o14|md|4SQHQ96DJ974CKQJ93,SJ96432HAJ87D8CT5,SKT8HT542DAKQ653C|rh||ah|Board 14|sv|0|pg|| qx|o15|md|1SAJ5HA9DT982CJ762,S8763HQ642DJCAT94,SK2HKJT8DKQ76C853|rh||ah|Board 15|sv|n|pg|| qx|o16|md|2S643H96DAQT7CKT94,SAJT5HJT4D962C832,SK972HA83D43CAJ65|rh||ah|Board 16|sv|e|pg|| qx|o17|md|3SA8HA2DJT632CJT74,S62HKQJT98D87CQ95,SJT5H3DAKQ954CK83|rh||ah|Board 17|sv|0|pg|| qx|o18|md|4S5HQ985DAQ83CQ854,SJT9632H6DJT64CT9,S87HKJ3DK52CAJ732|rh||ah|Board 18|sv|n|pg|| qx|o19|md|1ST83HJDKQ852CA987,SAQ97H9854DA763CK,SKJ2HAQT7D94CQJT4|rh||ah|Board 19|sv|e|pg|| qx|o20|md|2SAT7HT7DQT54CQJ72,SJ84HQJ85D6CAT843,S9653HA2DAK82CK96|rh||ah|Board 20|sv|b|pg|| qx|o21|md|3SKQ9H8DJT64CKQ943,S2H65432DK8532CA5,SAJTHQJT9DAQ7CT76|rh||ah|Board 21|sv|n|pg|| qx|o22|md|4S76HQ85DKT76CAKT7,SAJ942HJT943DCJ82,SKQT5HK2DAQ9842C4|rh||ah|Board 22|sv|e|pg|| qx|o23|md|1SQ9HK82DT742CAQ92,SJHAQT973DKQ9C863,SA764H64DAJ63CKJ7|rh||ah|Board 23|sv|b|pg|| qx|o24|md|2SK8HJ63D9853CAJ73,SQ63HAQT972D7C982,SAJ95HDAQT42CKT65|rh||ah|Board 24|sv|0|pg|| qx|o25|md|3SJ4HT3DAQ632CA873,SAT62H987652D5C96,SKQ5HAKJDJ97CT542|rh||ah|Board 25|sv|e|pg|| qx|o26|md|4SK54HAJD9753CQT72,SAQ76HK6DT842CJ85,SJ32H32DAQCAK9643|rh||ah|Board 26|sv|b|pg|| qx|o27|md|1SQ84H6DKQ83CQT532,SA9532HT75DACJ984,SKJ7HQJ92DT975CAK|rh||ah|Board 27|sv|0|pg|| qx|o28|md|2SKJH85DKJT8CJT432,SQ987652HKJ74DQCA,ST3HADA97632CKQ96|rh||ah|Board 28|sv|n|pg|| qx|o29|md|3SAJ76H5DK986CK972,SK542HQ986DQ73CQ4,ST3HAK72DAJT52CJT|rh||ah|Board 29|sv|b|pg|| qx|o30|md|4SJ9H2DQJ632CAQT42,SKQ2HA654D8CKJ853,SA85HJ98DAKT94C96|rh||ah|Board 30|sv|0|pg|| qx|o31|md|1SJ7HJ9DAQT97CJ543,SQ65HT875DK3CT762,ST2HQ3DJ6542CAKQ9|rh||ah|Board 31|sv|n|pg|| qx|o32|md|2S8HAQ8DA643CJT542,SKJ6432H42DK8CA93,SAT97H76DQJ5CKQ87|rh||ah|Board 32|sv|e|pg|| qx|o33|md|3S43H976DAJ85CAT75,SQJT7HK42D76CQ932,SA985HAQ53DQ42C86|rh||ah|Board 33|sv|0|pg|| qx|o34|md|4S9HKQ5DT753CKQT63,SQJ7H9732DA82CJ52,SAK52HAT86DQ9C974|rh||ah|Board 34|sv|n|pg|| qx|o35|md|1S87HATDK876CK8762,SKQ652HKQ962D43C5,SAJH8753DTCAQJ943|rh||ah|Board 35|sv|e|pg|| qx|o36|md|2SKJ7H3DAQT86CT865,S98542HAQJT86D95C,SQT6H42DKJCKQJ432|rh||ah|Board 36|sv|b|pg|| qx|o37|md|3SAT9HJTDQT97CA763,SJ753H983D84CQT92,SQ62HKQ52DKJ632CK|rh||ah|Board 37|sv|n|pg|| qx|o38|md|4SQJ4HJ7DAT76CKT65,ST5HAQ984D95C9832,S9862HKT53DKQ2CA7|rh||ah|Board 38|sv|e|pg|| qx|o39|md|1S954HQ8DAJ74CKT43,ST86HAJT9DKT95CQ2,SAJ2HK762DQ63CA65|rh||ah|Board 39|sv|b|pg|| qx|o40|md|2SHQT942DAQJ8CKT53,SKJ7HAK86DT52CJ72,SQ62HJ75DK43CAQ94|rh||ah|Board 40|sv|0|pg|| qx|o41|md|3ST963H4DAT72CAKT5,SA74HATDJ93CQJ764,SKQHK8DKQ8654C982|rh||ah|Board 41|sv|e|pg|| qx|o42|md|4SQ853H8DQ743CAKT7,SA62HAQJT75D6C954,SKT9H92DAKT82CQJ8|rh||ah|Board 42|sv|b|pg|| qx|o43|md|1SK4HJT5DQJ95CQT62,SQJ952H842D632CK7,ST6HAKQ9DT874CAJ9|rh||ah|Board 43|sv|0|pg|| qx|o44|md|2SAT65H7DAT94CQJ93,SJ97HJ653DKQJ8C76,SKQ8HKQTD532CAT42|rh||ah|Board 44|sv|n|pg|| qx|o45|md|3S976HAKDT852CK432,SAQ82HQ974DA94C86,SKHT65DQJ76CAQJT7|rh||ah|Board 45|sv|b|pg|| qx|o46|md|4SK4HK2D9742CQJ953,SQ762HQ9643DQ8CK2,SA5HJ85DAKJT6C864|rh||ah|Board 46|sv|0|pg|| qx|o47|md|1SK943H5DQ876CA532,SAT8HAK2DT94CT876,SQJ62H874DAKJCQJ4|rh||ah|Board 47|sv|n|pg|| qx|o48|md|2SQHAK7DK8653C9632,SAJ732HT8653DCAJ7,SK954HQJ42DQJ7CKQ|rh||ah|Board 48|sv|e|pg|| qx|o49|md|3S75HJ5DJT62CAKJ83,SJ6HK762DAQ5CQ765,SAQ2HA43DK743C942|rh||ah|Board 49|sv|0|pg|| qx|o50|md|4SK8HK42DAT52CJ642,SQJ75HJ653DJ6CA75,SA93HQ987DK84CKT9|rh||ah|Board 50|sv|n|pg|| qx|o51|md|1SAQTH87DT987CKJ62,S3HQ9432DKJ64C875,SKJ95H6DA3CAQT943|rh||ah|Board 51|sv|e|pg|| qx|o52|md|2SKQ4H4D9654CKQ953,SAJT8753HK3DACJ62,S96HQ2DKQJ832CA84|rh||ah|Board 52|sv|b|pg|| qx|o53|md|3SA8HKQ4DJ983CQ643,SJ74H9865DK52CK95,SKT62HATDA64CJT72|rh||ah|Board 53|sv|n|pg|| qx|o54|md|4S72HKQ6DAT85CJ865,SQ64HJ753DKQ76C92,S83HAT84D94CAKQT7|rh||ah|Board 54|sv|e|pg|| qx|o55|md|1SHKJT32DKQ65C9542,SQ6HAQ76D72CAT876,SA82H54DAJT943CKQ|rh||ah|Board 55|sv|b|pg|| qx|o56|md|2SK86HJ9DQJ86CAJ53,S7HK652DAK43CQ742,SA3HAQ83D975CKT98|rh||ah|Board 56|sv|0|pg|| qx|o57|md|3S76HQJ2DAQ52CQT76,SKQJ5H765DT84CA84,S842HAKT3DJ96CKJ9|rh||ah|Board 57|sv|e|pg|| qx|o58|md|4S2HQ765DKJT9CKQ76,SA73HT9842D84CJ98,SJT84HKDA7532CAT3|rh||ah|Board 58|sv|b|pg|| qx|o59|md|1SJ9HJ87DQJ75CKQ65,SAK765HT94D2C8743,SQ432HKQ6D986CAJ2|rh||ah|Board 59|sv|0|pg|| qx|o60|md|2SKT3HA6DQJ76CQ832,SQ65HKQJ93DK532C7,SJ874H74DA4CAKJT4|rh||ah|Board 60|sv|n|pg|| qx|o61|md|3SQJ6HT9DA983CQ873,SAK972H764D762CJ4,S54HKQJ3D5CAKT965|rh||ah|Board 61|sv|b|pg|| qx|o62|md|4ST7HK87DA652CQ632,SJ93HQ94DKT8C9874,SAQ85HT65DQ973CAT|rh||ah|Board 62|sv|0|pg|| qx|o63|md|1SKHAJ94DJT72CQ973,SAJ98742H6DQ9CJ85,S53HQ75DAK8543CKT|rh||ah|Board 63|sv|n|pg|| qx|o64|md|2SKT8H8D8743CAQT83,SA73HK975DAK6CK97,SQJ96HAQ63DQJT9C5|rh||ah|Board 64|sv|e|pg||
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#7 User is offline   James_H 

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Posted 2021-November-03, 19:13

The finished article, thanks for peoples contribution.

# minor openers with fit bid

Nopen = hearts(north) < 5 and spades(north) < 5 and
losers(north) < 8 and
((hcp(north) > 12 or (losers(north) < 8 and hcp(north) > 10)) and hcp(north) < 20) and
hcp(south) > 8 and hcp(south) < 14

Dopened = ( (diamonds(north) >= clubs(north) ) and
((shape(south, 5x4x) and top5(south, spades) > 2) or
(shape(south, x54x) and top5(south, hearts) > 2) or
(shape(south, xx45) and top5(south, clubs) > 2) or
(shape(south, 5x5x) and top5(south, spades) > 2) or
(shape(south, x55x) and top5(south, hearts) > 2) or
(shape(south, xx55) and top5(south, clubs) > 2) ) )

Copened = ( (clubs(north) > diamonds(north) ) and
((shape(south, 5xx4) and top5(south, spades) > 2) or
(shape(south, x5x4) and top5(south, hearts) > 2) or
(shape(south, xx54) and top5(south, diamonds) > 2) or
(shape(south, 5xx5) and top5(south, spades) > 2) or
(shape(south, x5x5) and top5(south, hearts) > 2) or
(shape(south, xx55) and top5(south, diamonds) > 2) ) )

strongNT =
(
shape(north, any 5332 + any 4432 + any 4333)&&
hcp(north)>=15&&hcp(north)<=17
)

Nopen and (Dopened or Copened) and !strongNT
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#8 User is online   paulg 

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Posted 2021-November-04, 02:11

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-November-03, 18:18, said:

Or you could just go to playbridge.com which uses the same dealer program but provides a nice GUI.

As you also say, the advantage of playbridge.com is that you can use the hands outside of BBO and have a record of the hands you bid, as it is notoriously difficult to extract bid hands from BBO.

The advantage of the dealer script is that you can easily switch the dealer between North and South, allowing both members of the partnership to experience the convention from both sides.
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#9 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-November-04, 05:51

View Postpaulg, on 2021-November-04, 02:11, said:

As you also say, the advantage of playbridge.com is that you can use the hands outside of BBO and have a record of the hands you bid, as it is notoriously difficult to extract bid hands from BBO.

The advantage of the dealer script is that you can easily switch the dealer between North and South, allowing both members of the partnership to experience the convention from both sides.


It's a good point. Actually, they have a "rotate with dealer" option as well so you can get to try out the type of deal in all configurations.
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#10 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-November-04, 11:08

I'm glad you got this all working. Nitpicks:
  • If you're taking my "13 high or 11+ with <8 losers" idea, you need to remove the forced "losers(north) < 8" line (line 2 in your second set). You are still dropping 8-loser 14 counts.
  • If that matches your strong NT philosophy, great. I will open NT with many 2245s (especially 2=2=(45) and 6m322s as well (but I tend to play 1x-1y; 1z as "strongly implying an unbalanced hand").
  • requiring 3/top 5 in south's 9-13 is going to seriously restrict the eligible hands. Again, if that's your philosophy for fit jumps, fine. But KQxxx (not T) or AT9xx seems to be "second suit of note" for me - especially if it's a major - and removing those hands will distort (again, unless it is not your agreement).
  • I am actually a fan of ">=" and "<=" when that's what you would say; it allows the numbers to be more easily grokked on reading. Sure, `> 8` is equivalent to `>= 9`, but you'd describe it as "9-13", not "more than 8 and less than 14" (Okay, you'd *actually* describe it as "limit raise values", but if they asked for a range, "usually 9-13 or so" would come out.) I know several times reading and replying to this, I've said "would you do something else with a X" - only to reread and realize it's the first excluded value, not the last included value.

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