[Syl20]

It is obviously an advantage to be able to describe a forcing game hand at 1NT rather than in 2♣ after a limited 1♥/♠ opening (11-15H).
I am wondering about the responses when responder is not forcing game.
With, 6-xH (x between 9 and 11) and a 5 card suit (except ♣ which is any invitationnal), the suit is bid.
So:
1- What if the suit is ♣ ?

2- What if 2443 or 2434 or 1444 after a 1♠ opening ?
I assume that pass is the only option with up to 8H loosing any chance to find a better spot, what else ?

3- For those playing 2♣ as invitationnal, what hands does it hides and what are the opener's rebids ?

4- Are there any player with some experience (un)happy with this 1NT forcing game bid and inferences?

Thanks,

[Free]

I don't really understand what you want to know. Do you want to play 2♣ as GF, or 1NT, or do you want to use both bids to show some kind of strength? It's a bit confusing, so I'll wait to respond to the other questions for now.

[MickyB]

Free, I think the intention is to have 1NT as any GF, 2♣ as any invite, and others nat NF.

[luis]

Take a look at the Viking club where 1M-1NT is GF and 1M-2♣ is INV.

And if you like to open light consider a variation I made with my pd:
After 1M-1NT we play 2♣ = I have a hand that a normal human would have passed, then 2♦ = I don't care GF anyway.

[glen]

As noted just above look at the Viking Club. They use:

1NT: GF relay.
2♣: Any game invite
2♦: 5+♦s, less than GI
2♥: 5+♥s, less than GI
2M: Support, less than GI.
2♠: Constructive vulnerable, preemptive non-vulnerable.
2NT: Both minors, 5 to less than GI.

It does leave awkard hand types if less than GI and no suit to bid. Perhaps they bid 2M on doubletons a lot if constructive values.

Welland-Fallenius go half-and-half:

After 1♥:
1♠: Like forcing NT
1NT: GF relay
2♣: 5+♠s, 9-12

After 1♠:
1NT: Forcing
2♣: GF relay
2♦: 5+♥s, 9-12

This structure has a 1NT forcing bid to handle both GI hands and all those less than GI hands with no suit to bid. If you don't go this way, I think it is better to try transfers at the 2 level, so:

After 1M:
1NT: GF Relay
2♣: ♦s or balanced and less than GI. After opener's 2♦ rebid, 2M and 2NT show balanced hand types, 2NT if GI.
etc.

With 4-4-4-1, singleton in M, treat as balanced.

I tried for many years to embed a GF relay into 1NT forcing. So, for example, 1♠-1NT(asking, any strength)-2♣ (♣s)-2♦ was a GF relay now. Here a 1-4-4-4 would bid 1NT, then pass opener's rebid or raise or bid 2NT. The scheme did not work.

[scoob]

luis, on Jun 9 2005, 10:34 AM, said:

Take a look at the Viking club where 1M-1NT is GF and 1M-2♣ is INV.

And if you like to open light consider a variation I made with my pd:
After 1M-1NT we play 2♣ = I have a hand that a normal human would have passed, then 2♦ = I don't care GF anyway.

my partner and i have a similar bid that appears a few times throughout our system, which we've nicknamed the "boredom bid". basically, "i will almost certainly pass your next natural bid"

[awm]

At some point I came up with what seems to be a workable system for game-forcing relays after the forcing notrump. The basic structure was something like:

1♠-1NT (normal forcing NT or any GF)
... 2♣ = basically forcing, shows clubs OR exactly 4♥
... 2♦ = natural 4+♦ (2♥ relays)
... 2♥ = 5-5 or better in the majors (2♠ is weak preference, 2NT is GF relay)
... 2♠ = six spades, or 7222
... 2NT = 7+ spades and side shortness
... 3♣+ = 6-5 hands, good values, min new suit relays for shortage

After 1♠-1NT-2♣:
... 2♦ = relay (could be invite with 4+♥, or any GF)
... 2♥ = weak hand with 4+ hearts and 0-2 spades, NF
... 2♠ = simple correction, normally weak hand with 2 spade and club fit

Anyways, this all worked fine in the absence of competition (it also helped that major openings were limited by our polish club style structure). But in a competitive auction, the 2-way 1NT was a beast I couldn't tame.

Honestly I'm not that convinced by relay methods, especially in competitive (or potentially competitive) auctions. What seems more useful to me, is relays late in natural auctions (for example 2-way NMF 2♦ as a GF relay, or 3rd suit/4th suit relays). But it seems like most folks are either totally anti-relay (never want to use them, too hard to remember) or totally pro-relay (want to relay all the time in every marginally constructive auction). Ah well, the "naturalist" vs "scientist" debate rages on, while those who live in the middle ground just keep winning the boards.

[Syl20]

As Free pointed out, i might not have been clear.

The point is I cannot get the Viking Cub book in France. I can just look at the system on their site but it is (of course) very limited in terms of the drawbacks of 1NT forcing game when responder is weak with clubs, or balanced average (8-10 hcp) without a fit and just too weak for invitation.
officeglen gave some clues.

I also wanted to know the bidding after 1♥/♠ 2♣ when it is played as invitationnal (no information anywhere on Internet to my knowledge).

I wanted to know how they work in practice

[Gerben42]

You are right, there is no information on the net for this. What they use is that after 2♣ invitational, 2M is minimum balanced and 2♦ is a waiting bid after which responder clarifies his hand.

Anything higher than 2M shows a maximum and is therefore GF.
NF hands with ♣ have no way out, if you have both minors you can respond 2NT though.

[luke warm]

i don't know if this is what you're looking for, but claus has most big club system on his site... click here

[keylime]

I play this with my pard in GCC events in the ACBL, so we have to have ways of weak signoffs in 2M and limit raises involved with us to keep it legal (no guarantee of G/F values for it to be legal here).

The first thing that I will say about it: if the opps bid you have an advantage, but only if they bid at a level BELOW your major opening. So this auction is a total pain:

1H - P - 1NT - 2S

The second thing about it is, once you bid 1NT forcing, you need to determine how to initiate a G/F bid. With us we have some ways of doing so:

a) 1H - 1NT - 2C - 2D (nat g/f, doesn't deny hearts)
1H - 1NT - 2C - 2S (art g/f but lacking four diamonds)
c) 1H - 1NT - 2D - 2S (art g/f, but not denying 4 clubs)
d) 1S - 1NT - 2C - 2D (nat g/f, doesn't deny hearts)
e) 1S - 1NT - 2D - 2H (art g/f, doesn't deny clubs)

5 ways to make a g/f. 5 ways to have a headache if you're not thinking ahead. Trust me on this one.

Item 3: Play fit jumps. It takes all the picture jumps that are common in 2/1 out of the forcing NT. I mean this:

1H - 4C (clubs and hearts, NOT a splinter)
1S - 4H (hearts and spades, NOT a splinter)

With fit jumps splinters get coupled into one call. I use these two meanings:

1H - 3S and 1S - 3NT. That means that all splinters get rolled into one call. This also unburdens the forcing NT some.

Item 4: With G/F raises, show slam intent. With us, it's 1H-2S and 1S-3C. We use 2NT as a GI two suited hand. With forcing NT, we can bid 1NT then 3NT to keep opps in the dark.

Item 5: With forcing NT, you can play 2/1's like a "reverse forcing NT". For example:

1H - 2C (NONFORCING, drop dead, NO heart doubleton, 6+ in length)

With a 2443 or 2434 or 1444, the doubletons don't bother me; we GUARANTEE two of pard's major with forcing NT. So unless we have a G/F 4441, we are stuck at times on invite hands. We don't rebid three card minors put it that way.

Item 6: Inferences. Wow, I get SO many inferences in our auctions it's great. Let me offer an example that was recent:

1S - 1NT
2C -

I know pard's on 5-x-x-4 right now. I now bid 2h, art g/f denying 4 diamonds to get this:

n/a - 2H
3C -

Hmm, pard didn't bid 2NT. With us this shows either 5-2-2-4 or 5-1-3-4 hand types. Instead 3C. Pard's 5-x-x-5.

n/a - 3H (natural call)
3NT (doub heart) -

Nice. Pard's shown 12 cards to 3NT. I know diamonds are a problem.

n/a - 4S swish.

Playing a 5-2 gained us a game score. Playing 3NT is off two. We get inferences available that at times are one level LOWER in bidding than standard 2/1'ers.

Next example:

<from Victoria Regional>

1H - 1NT (2C enemy overcall)
X* (have 4 clubs to A/K/Q, asks pard to clarify hand) - 2D(natural G/F)
2NT (exactly 2-5-2-4) - 4D (RKC Redwood in diamonds, big hand)
4NT (two, no queen) - 6D swishie (pard's on stiff club)

In standard after pard's 2/1, I have a 3C rebid where I can't now show my doubleton heart cheaply. Pard's on AKx. That's big holding.

Last item: If you went to this approach, DOCUMENT. Get pard on same page. Trying to play this without forethought is begging for issues. You need to think about if pard finds a JUMP bid showing the 14-15 concentrated hand.

[mikestar]

Actually, 1NT game forcing is GCC legal now, provided the continations do not constitute a relay system. (It wasn't GCC leagl when the Key Lime Precision 1NT response was devised.)

#3 under Responses and Rebids on the GCC:

CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME
FORCING OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay
system.

What is still illegal is geiven under #2 (emphasis added):

ONE NOTRUMP response to a major suit opening bid forcing one round;
cannot guarantee game invitational or better values.

[keylime]

GCC getting civilized, scary.

We put in the 2M rebids to show weak hands and the LR's to help not have the governing authorities too upset.

[the hog]

The original Symmetric relay has 1M 1NT as a GF bid - normal Symmetric responses -
2C = D
2D = C
2H = some 5440
2S = single suited with a low shrtage, (or a high shortage in some versions)
2NT = 6223/7222
etc.

[luis]

The Viking structure:

1M - 1NT

Now:
2c = Maximum
2d = Min, side minor
2h = Min, Balanced or both majors
2s = Min, One suited hand
2N = Min, 6-4 hand 6M-4m
3c = Max 5-5 relay asks
3d = Max 5-5 relay asks

1M - 1NT; 2d - 2h relay
2s = Clubs 5-4 relay asks distribution (5422,5431,5413)
2n = Diamonds 5-4 relay asks distribution (5422,5431,5413)
3c = Clubs 5-5 relay asks distribution (5521, 5512, 5530, 5503)
3d = Diamonds 5-5 relay asks distribution (5521, 5512, 5530, 5503)

1M - 1NT; 2h - 2s relay
2N = Balanced 5332 relay asks for doubleton
3c = Both Majors 6-4 relay asks
3d = Both majors 5-5 relay asks
3h = Both majors 5422
3s = Both majors 5431 low singl
3n = Both majors 5431 high singl

1M - 1N; 2s - 2N relay
3c = 6322 relay asks tripleton
3d = 6331 low singl
3h = 6331 midl singl
3s = 6331 high singl
3N = 7222
4c = 7321 low singl
4d = 7321 high singl

1M - 1N; 2N - 3c relay
3d = clubs
3h = diamonds

1M - 1N; 2c (Max) 2d relay
2h = Max, both majors or balanced
2s = Max one suited
2N = Max 6M-4m
3c = Max 5M-4c
3d = Max 5M-4d
*symettric to the previous bids*

This is the original structure, as posted I changed the meaning of 1M-1N;2c to show a hand that a human being wouldn't open the others then show a normal opening. After 1M-1N;2c-2d is still the GF relay and we keep system on.

Luis