[mikestar]

Jlall, on Jun 17 2005, 01:47 PM, said:

I have never understood the concept of semi forcing. It means partner will bid if he has shape or extras? That is the same with non forcing 1N as far as I know.

The difference in the (badly named) "semi-forcing" 1NT response and a non-forcing 1NT is that the semi-focring vairety may have game invitational values (the range is about 6-12), while the traditional NF variety may not (the range is 6-10). So opener with a 14 count playable in NT can pass a NF 1NT but must find a bid over a SF 1NT.

Personally, I don't care for semi-foricng 1N and prefer it forcing over a major opening--if the NT has a doubleton, the major will ususally play as well of better, if he has a stiff the contract probably belongs in another suit. The thing I hate about the SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx.

[mike777]

mikestar, on Jun 17 2005, 09:22 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 17 2005, 01:47 PM, said:

I have never understood the concept of semi forcing. It means partner will bid if he has shape or extras? That is the same with non forcing 1N as far as I know.

The difference in the (badly named) "semi-forcing" 1NT response and a non-forcing 1NT is that the semi-focring vairety may have game invitational values (the range is about 6-12), while the traditional NF variety may not (the range is 6-10). So opener with a 14 count playable in NT can pass a NF 1NT but must find a bid over a SF 1NT.

Personally, I don't care for semi-foricng 1N and prefer it forcing over a major opening--if the NT has a doubleton, the major will ususally play as well of better, if he has a stiff the contract probably belongs in another suit. The thing I hate about the SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx.

If you open all junky 5332 11-12 hcp hands, playing semi-force 1nt lets you out in 1nt. Constructive raises get you out at 2 of a major. Note 1nt response over major can be stronger than most 2/1 or sayc here.

"SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx"

Not sure what you mean by your example hand, with forcing nt do you expect p to often rebid 3 card minors? With 4 card minor everyone will get to 2H.
We play BART over 1S=1NT=2C, 2c here may be 3 or 2 but that is somewhat rare.

[PriorKnowledge]

Jlall, on Jun 17 2005, 11:25 AM, said:

oh i see, semi forcing is the same as non forcing except that partner must bid 14 5332 in semi forcing...thats a really useful distinction

Morph Alert!

Yes! Exactly! Opener can pass a semi-forcing with a 12-13 5332 hand, but must rebid on anything else.

Some feel the ability to play a 1N contract or get the opps to come in blind at the 2-level is worth modifying your system. Maybe it's the stress of playing all those 4-3 minor suit 8 tricks contracts when 7 NT tricks were there.

[pclayton]

Its an even better hand for transfer advances. You can bid 1N which pard can even
Pass (since you are a passed hand) try 2C with tolerance, 2H or rebid 2S.

I voted pass but reading the others comments I think some sort of action is warranted.

[mike777]

Jlall, on Jun 17 2005, 02:54 PM, said:

PriorKnowledge, on Jun 17 2005, 11:18 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 17 2005, 11:25 AM, said:

oh i see, semi forcing is the same as non forcing except that partner must bid 14 5332 in semi forcing...thats a really useful distinction

Morph Alert!

Yes! Exactly! Opener can pass a semi-forcing with a 12-13 5332 hand, but must rebid on anything else.

Some feel the ability to play a 1N contract or get the opps to come in blind at the 2-level is worth modifying your system. Maybe it's the stress of playing all those 4-3 minor suit 8 tricks contracts when 7 NT tricks were there.

This is why Hamman plays his NT range as 14+-17. He also bids 1N on 11 over 1M. So with an average 14 opp average 11, you might play 1N, but worse things have happened. and 2m bids get their integrity back.

Yes, same theory, with semi-forcing nt may end up with junky 13 hcp (responder) bidding 1NT across from junky 11 or 12 hcp(opener) in 1NT but makes 2/1 bids stronger.

[inquiry]

Jlall, on Jun 17 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

This is why Hamman plays his NT range as 14+-17. He also bids 1N on 11 over 1M. So with an average 14 opp average 11, you might play 1N, but worse things have happened. and 2m bids get their integrity back.

Semi-forcing 1NT is the perfect description to what I play over 1M-Pass-1NT... (of course, this has nothing to do with tis thread where partner overcalls, I bid 1NT to show I have some values, that may or maynot actually include a spade stopper).

The way I play this semi-forcing 1NT I have discussed before, but I will repeat it here to make it clear why it is semi-forcing.

1) I will never have three card support for partner (I raise or pass or use drury even after first seat opening bid)
2) I will never have balanced hand and 11 hcp or more (I will use the same "drury" thing even with doubleton support).
3) I will never have game invite hand and a fair to good six card suit (I use invitational jumpshifts here).

So my hand is limited by the inabiity to do somehting other than 1NT, and my bid denies support for parnter suit. It is semi-forcing, as I can be quite unbalanced (this 1NT DOES not promise a balanced hand). Partner with weak holding in his major, and good cards in the other suits, can pass, even iwth some normal opening bids. I think it is the potential unbalanced nature of the bid that makes it alertable as semi-forcing.

[Winstonm]

[QUOTE]Could you 2 please stop agreeing with each other? its kinda boring :-P

OK, Justin, guess the gloves are coming off now....so.....Justin always wanted to be a gread bridge player; unfortunately, he's just a Plano bridge player.

WinstonM

[EricK]

My point with the semi-forcing 1NT in this position is that it is not natural (so it doesn't show a balanced hand or a stopper) and ask partner to bid - that's the forcing bit. But partner can pass if he has the ♦ stopped (and his hand is otherwise suitable) - that's the semi bit.

Eric

[pigpenz]

pass and hope that something else happens

[mikestar]

mike777, on Jun 17 2005, 03:30 PM, said:

mikestar, on Jun 17 2005, 09:22 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 17 2005, 01:47 PM, said:

I have never understood the concept of semi forcing. It means partner will bid if he has shape or extras? That is the same with non forcing 1N as far as I know.

The difference in the (badly named) "semi-forcing" 1NT response and a non-forcing 1NT is that the semi-focring vairety may have game invitational values (the range is about 6-12), while the traditional NF variety may not (the range is 6-10). So opener with a 14 count playable in NT can pass a NF 1NT but must find a bid over a SF 1NT.

Personally, I don't care for semi-foricng 1N and prefer it forcing over a major opening--if the NT has a doubleton, the major will ususally play as well of better, if he has a stiff the contract probably belongs in another suit. The thing I hate about the SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx.

If you open all junky 5332 11-12 hcp hands, playing semi-force 1nt lets you out in 1nt. Constructive raises get you out at 2 of a major. Note 1nt response over major can be stronger than most 2/1 or sayc here.

"SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx"

Not sure what you mean by your example hand, with forcing nt do you expect p to often rebid 3 card minors? With 4 card minor everyone will get to 2H.
We play BART over 1S=1NT=2C, 2c here may be 3 or 2 but that is somewhat rare.

Yes, with forcing 1NT, partner bids a three card minor and I can get to hearts. With semi-forcing 1NT he will pass Axxxx Qxx Kxx Kx--so very often 2♥ makes when 1NT is down.

Another way of making this work is to require that light hands have shape, so that a 5332 11 count is passed and a 5332 12 count can be passed if the hand quality is poor.

Zarpoint enthusiasts are already doing this--an 11 point 5332 requires 4 controls to open 1♠ and 5 controls to open 1♥ in the Zar method.

Of course, those who combine weak NT with 2/1 have the best of everything--they play forcing NT and 1♠-1NT-2♣ will either be a real suit or 3 clubs with 15+.

[mike777]

mikestar, on Jun 18 2005, 12:33 AM, said:

-so very often 2♥ makes when 1NT is down.

Good grief, I will take that bet.
1s=p=1nt=p
p=p

1nt will make more often than 2h, if we assume 1nt semi-forcing and 5332 shape and junky 11-12 hcp.

partner could be short in hearts!