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How to game force with an overcall In the absence of strong jumps and psyches

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 16:59

Hi all

Suppose you have a GF single suiter (8-9 tricks etc) over a minor suit opening, and a rather disappointing cautious partner prone to passing with a good hand
Suppose also you dislike psyching too much, or disapprove or feel you have used up your psyche for the day

What do you do

Thanks
P
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#2 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 17:06

Playing with humans, if you're too strong to overcall, start with a double then override partner's choice to bid some number of your suit. What too strong to overcall means depends on the exact hand; if you're short in a major, expect partner will be bidding or even jumping in that suit, so make sure you can follow up properly.

Playing with GIB, you have no hope of any sensible bidding sequence since it doesn't understand basic logic here. Probably just lie, show a weak hand by preempting to game and hope you didn't miss slam.
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#3 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 17:08

1.Bid game in your suit.
2. Bid Michaels then bid game in your suit
3. Double, then bid game in your suit.
4. Tell your partner you don’t play Michaels so direct cue bids are game forces. Then bid your suit after you cue bid.

Basically this is just like playing in a cut-for-partners rubber bridge game by at the golf course. You make pragmatic choices.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#4 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 17:27

Thankyou

I considered some of those different options. I haven't been left in low level overcall option often but it has happened from time to time with GiB

I was reading about reasons for strong overcalls going out of fashion. I know they don't happen often but they do from time to time

I should just use psyche preempts more

I should put up a hand that worked out nicely yesterday when I gambled on a 5 level cue bid over a preempt which worked and not dwell on negatives
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#5 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 19:39

View Postthepossum, on 2021-October-02, 17:27, said:

Thankyou

I considered some of those different options. I haven't been left in low level overcall option often but it has happened from time to time with GiB

I was reading about reasons for strong overcalls going out of fashion. I know they don't happen often but they do from time to time

I should just use psyche preempts more

I should put up a hand that worked out nicely yesterday when I gambled on a 5 level cue bid over a preempt which worked and not dwell on negatives


I used to play jump overcalls were weak, intermediate, or strong depending on vulnerability. I still find that a useful method.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#6 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 22:20

Wrong forum, please remove.
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#7 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 00:24

This post intentionally left blank
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#8 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 00:34

Here is the hand if anyone is interested

Only scored -3. Could have been much worse

And I think I missed an overtrick.

Could any of the assembled brains trust advise what a beginner should do sitting North
Given the possible shapes and strength for a 1 spade overcall I felt pass was disappointing


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#9 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 02:48

Yes this looks like a double then 4 hand, but I might bid 4 direct opposite a passed partner.

7-2-2-2 is not quite as good as it looks. North and West have not more than 11 hcp between them and you probably need North to have two Aces for slam. As the actual defence shows you need quite a lot opposite to make a slam solid. Six can be made on a minor suit lead. You win AD, CKQ, D ruff, JS, AC pitching heart, concede a heart. This works if clubs are 3-3 or the hand with two clubs has only got one trump. Don't know if I'd find that line at the table though Posted Image.

I wouldn't call bidding 4 here psyching a pre-empt, for me it just shows a hand that wants to bid 4 and has no slam ambitions, a bit like a 4 opening opposite a passed partner.
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#10 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 03:27

I regard it as a psych using the system GiB plays. Its defined as a weak jump

I think I checked every possible bid for one that came close. I guess I was asking for trouble since I think I had one more point than the 8-17 point overcall range defined

Its all my fault :)

But at least I didn't end up in 7
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#11 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 06:10

View Postthepossum, on 2021-October-03, 03:27, said:

I regard it as a psych using the system GiB plays. Its defined as a weak jump

There is quite a bit of difference between (1) - 4 and P - (1) - 4 even though the overarching meaning is the same. The general principle is that you make the bid when you do not want to bid constructively, meaning that the range for 4 is much wider in the second auction than the first. That said, this is a hand that I would feel I was underbidding if I opened it with a Benji/SEF/Forum D 2 - 9 PTs! It is good enough that we could easily have a grand on a hand partner would pass, so I think Double is a better option than the immediate 4. I would not just X and bid though - the hand is too good for that. X and 4 is an option, as Douglas suggests; X and cue is another. North bid impeccably, there is no reason to expect partner to have a hand like this for a simple 1 overcall so allowing for it would be foolish. Some Easts would have doubled back in, which would have given you a second chance, but GIB is made of sterner stuff.
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#12 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 08:39

I'm not sure what psyches have to do with any of this...

The hand is question seems like an obvious double, followed by bidding spades
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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 10:28

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-October-03, 02:48, said:

Six can be made on a minor suit lead. You win AD, CKQ, D ruff, JS, AC pitching heart, concede a heart. This works if clubs are 3-3 or the hand with two clubs has only got one trump. Don't know if I'd find that line at the table though Posted Image.


I would have got it wrong for sure.
Six can also be made on a trump lead, in much the same way.
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#14 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 13:28

View Posthrothgar, on 2021-October-03, 08:39, said:

I'm not sure what psyches have to do with any of this...

The hand is question seems like an obvious double, followed by bidding spades


Playing with a human, that's good advice. Playing with GIB, one should never double with a strong one suited hand. With a spade shortage, GIB will insist on trying to be declarer with a bad 4 or 5 card suit. If you decide on the auction to just bid a game, GIB will play you for 26-32 HCP and raise to slam with a misfit and some random quacks and honors in opener's suit.
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#15 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 14:29

View Postpescetom, on 2021-October-03, 10:28, said:

I would have got it wrong for sure.
Six can also be made on a trump lead, in much the same way.


Oh yes, I had missed that, thanks!
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#16 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 14:47

View Postthepossum, on 2021-October-03, 03:27, said:

I guess I was asking for trouble since I think I had one more point than the 8-17 point overcall range defined

By the way, as I referred to earlier, whether you overcall or double isn't just about point count at all.

If your RHO opens 1 and you have - KQJ98 KQ5 AKJ76, a 1 overcall is pretty clearcut (both with and without GIB), despite having 19 HCP (and a K&R value of over 22).
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#17 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 20:30

I thought we put that to bed last year. You cannot psych a robot.
The essence of a psych. is that you create in the mind of your opponent a false impression.
How exactly do you create a false impression in the 'mind' of a computer program?

The correct bid in a best hand robot tourney is 4S and hope for the best.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 20:57

In Santa Barbara in 1975 vulnerable against vulnerable I held in 3rd seat xx, xxx, QJxx, xxxx and after two passes opened 1S.

That was a psyche.
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#19 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 22:39

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-October-03, 20:57, said:

In Santa Barbara in 1975 vulnerable against vulnerable I held in 3rd seat xx, xxx, QJxx, xxxx and after two passes opened 1S.

That was a psyche.


Was your partner's name Cupid?
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#20 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 22:21

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-October-03, 20:30, said:

I thought we put that to bed last year. You cannot psych a robot.
The essence of a psych. is that you create in the mind of your opponent a false impression.
How exactly do you create a false impression in the 'mind' of a computer program?

The correct bid in a best hand robot tourney is 4S and hope for the best.


I know you clearly cannot psych a bot - but my Turing tests are ongoing

However you can clearly mislead one with any bid that grossly misstates the strength and shape of your hand :)

And I imagine, given the lack of flexibility inherent in most automation it is easier to psych a bot than a human in that sense

I do sometimes get very concerned at the state of mind of one of the bots. Some days I appear to be playing Marvin the Android and give up. Its so sad. Brain the size of a planet and it has to play GiB 2/1 day after day

9/10 days I would just have bid 4S and not even considered alternatives. But sometimes you like to mix it up a bit :) Maybe I'm losing my touch or interest in bot bridge
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