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Symmetric relays over 1M unbalanced with minor suit canape...

#1 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 10:12

This is primarily a paper exercise, but assuming the following opening structure, what's the best way of organizing a symmetric relay structure? Note that the idea is to use 1 as a balanced hand with 5M332, etc.

1: Unbalanced with 4+ (possibly longer minor)
1: Unbalanced with 4+ (possibly longer minor)

One possibility is the following:

1 - 1 (forcing ask):
...........1N: Only 4, or 4441+5440, 2 = 4441/5440, else reversed shapes +0
...........2: 5+ + , +0
...........2: 6+, +0
...........2: 5+ + 4+ , +1
...........2: H+, LL etc., +0

1 - 1N:
...........2: Only 4 + minor, or 4441+5440, 2 = 4441/5440, else reversed shapes @ +1
...........2: 5 + , +1
...........2: 6+, +1
...........2: 5+ + , +1
...........2N: + , LL, +1
...........3C: +, SL +1 (no LL)
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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 11:16

1-1(GF relay); ?:

1N = 4+ S or 3-suited
...2
......2 = 1- S, 3-suited
......2 = 4 S, 3-suited
......2 = 5+H5+S
......2N+ = 5+H4S, 2-suited
2 = 4+ D, 2-suited
...2
......2 = 4H5+D, 2-suited
......2 = 5+H5+D
......2N+ = 5+H4D, 2-suited
2 = 6+ H, 1-suited
2 = 4H5+C, 2-suited
2 = 5+H5+C
2N+ = 5+S4C, 2-suited


1-1N(GF relay); ?:

2 = 4+ D, not 5440
...2
......2 = 1- H, 3-suited
......2 = 4S5+D, 2-suited
......2N = 5+S5+D
......3+ = 5+S4D, 2-suited
2 = 4+ H
...2
......2 = 3-suited
......2N = 5+S5+H
......3+ = 5+S4H, 2-suited
2 = 6+ S, 1-suited
2 = 4S5+C, 2-suited
2N = 5+S5+C
3+ = 5+S4C, 2-suited
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#3 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 11:26

Kit and Kate Relay has positive answers of 1 showing spades and 1 showing hearts, both possibly having a longer side suit, to the strong 1. You could perhaps base your approach on their relay responses? However, they also include 5332, 6322 and 7222 hands which may or may not be considered unbalanced in your system.
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#4 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 11:53

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-July-26, 11:26, said:

Kit and Kate Relay has positive answers of 1 showing spades and 1 showing hearts, both possibly having a longer side suit, to the strong 1. You could perhaps base your approach on their relay responses? However, they also include 5332, 6322 and 7222 hands which may or may not be considered unbalanced in your system.


Yes, KK-relay is perforce +2 over a 1M - 2 relay. The objective here is to try and remain at +1.
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#5 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 12:00

I'm out of my depth here but I was suggesting that opener shows answers using KK-relay's responder's answers - after all, the 1 and 1 openings closely resemble what would be a positive response to 1 in KK. So 1M+1 is the relay bid, not 2, and you are at +0.
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#6 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 13:22

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-July-26, 12:00, said:

I'm out of my depth here but I was suggesting that opener shows answers using KK-relay's responder's answers - after all, the 1 and 1 openings closely resemble what would be a positive response to 1 in KK. So 1M+1 is the relay bid, not 2, and you are at +0.

Over 1, a 1 response shows all hands with 4+. It's possible to organize this using 1 as a potential canapé in the major suits to achieve what you said. However, consider the auction 1 - (3) with say 54xx in the majors. Responder may have a marginal hand with , but may be unable to take any action over 3, and the fit is lost. In contrast, over 1 - (3), at least there's no concern about that particular possibility, and the auction likely went the same at other tables.
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Posted 2021-July-26, 14:55

View Postfoobar, on 2021-July-26, 13:22, said:

Over 1, a 1 response shows all hands with 4+. It's possible to organize this using 1 as a potential canapé in the major suits to achieve what you said. However, consider the auction 1 - (3) with say 54xx in the majors. Responder may have a marginal hand with , but may be unable to take any action over 3, and the fit is lost. In contrast, over 1 - (3), at least there's no concern about that particular possibility, and the auction likely went the same at other tables.


You could sacrifice your 2H opening to show the Reverse Flannery shape.

I know this is just a paper exercise, but your 1D will be very underloaded. In fact, you could move some other hands (say 4S/5D or whatever, basically whatever it can handle) into 1D. Then at least your 1S will relay better.
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#8 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 15:11

View Poststraube, on 2021-July-26, 14:55, said:

You could sacrifice your 2H opening to show the Reverse Flannery shape.

I know this is just a paper exercise, but your 1D will be very underloaded. In fact, you could move some other hands (say 4S/5D or whatever, basically whatever it can handle) into 1D. Then at least your 1S will relay better.

My bad for not making it explicit, but part of this exercise is having 1 as any balanced hand, including 5M332 in say the 11-13 range.
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#9 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 18:21

View Postfoobar, on 2021-July-26, 10:12, said:

This is primarily a paper exercise, but assuming the following opening structure, what's the best way of organizing a symmetric relay structure? Note that the idea is to use 1 as a balanced hand with 5M332, etc.

1: Unbalanced with 4+ (possibly longer minor)
1: Unbalanced with 4+ (possibly longer minor)

If you are starting from this base it is better to switch to 2-under transfers and move the balanced hands up to 1.
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#10 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 19:14

View PostGilithin, on 2021-July-26, 18:21, said:

If you are starting from this base it is better to switch to 2-under transfers and move the balanced hands up to 1.

The inspiration for this exercise came from https://sites.google...iew/ulfn66/home, so we are bound by the specified constraints.
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#11 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 23:33

View Postfoobar, on 2021-July-26, 10:12, said:

This is primarily a paper exercise, but assuming the following opening structure, what's the best way of organizing a symmetric relay structure? Note that the idea is to use 1 as a balanced hand with 5M332, etc.

1: Unbalanced with 4+ (possibly longer minor)
1: Unbalanced with 4+ (possibly longer minor)

One possibility is the following:

1 - 1 (forcing ask):
...........1N: Only 4, or 4441+5440, 2 = 4441/5440, else reversed shapes +0
...........2: 5+ + , +0
...........2: 6+, +0
...........2: 5+ + 4+ , +1
...........2: H+, LL etc., +0

1 - 1N:
...........2: Only 4 + minor, or 4441+5440, 2 = 4441/5440, else reversed shapes @ +1
...........2: 5 + , +1
...........2: 6+, +1
...........2: 5+ + , +1
...........2N: + , LL, +1
...........3C: +, SL +1 (no LL)


Atul, I guess you know what we would do.
Just checking how majors are handled. 1 opening can't have 5+ spades. Right?
If so, 1 is easy. Just use our structure with major hands bidding 2 to replace removed balanced hands.

1 - 1

1N ... , unbalanced, then 2 Roman
2 ... 4, then 2 = Roman, 2 + are down 1, since 5-5 majors open 1.
2 ... >=

1 - 1N

2 ...
2 ... >=
2 ... >=
2 ... >
2N+ ... 6+

These all +1, except both majors (square)
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#12 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 04:29

1. I am not sure what your "+1" etc notation means.

2. You cannot fit all of the hands in 1 into standardish symmetric relays.

3. You can fit all of the hands in 1 into standardish symmetric relays with some free space.

4. In fact you can fit everything in if 1 includes all hands with both majors whichever suit is longer.

The single-suited relay requires all of the bids from 2 up.

The two-suited relay requires all of the bids from 2 up - reverser, long-legged, high shortage etc.

This means that:

2 has room for one single-suited pattern. Relay with 2 then we are at 2 or higher.

2 has room for one two-suited pattern. Relay with 2 then we are at 2 or higher.

1NT has room for one single-suited pattern and one two-suited pattern. Relay with 2 then 2 is the single-suited pattern and 2 and above are the two-suited patterns.

1 has room for two two-suited patterns and one one-suited pattern. Relay with 1NT and 2 shows one two-suited pattern, 2 shows a single-suited pattern, and 2 and above shows the second two-suited pattern.

1 has room for two single-suited patterns and three two-suited patterns. Relay with 1 and a single-suited and two-suited pattern go into 1NT, a two suited pattern into 2, a single-suited pattern into 2, and a two-suited pattern into 2 and higher.

These constraints are hard. They can be shuffled around a little. Standard symmetric puts a single-suited pattern into 2 and up immediately and splits one of the two-suited patterns into 2 and 2 - the reverser - but you cannot create any more bidding space.

You can substitute one of the single-suited places for aberrant hands like three-suiters.

This is essentially what the standard symmetric relay does over the strong 1 opening.

1 has all heart/spade two-suiters, all heart/diamond two-suiters, and all heart/club two-suiters - that is three two-suited patterns - and all heart single-suiters and some heart three-suiters.

1 has only two two-suiters spades and diamonds and spades and clubs and the single-suited spade hands.

If we put more hands into the 1 like the 5+ spades and 4 heart hands then the relay is necessarily pushed up at least for some hands. Conversely, when we take those hands out of 1 the relay can go down but that might come at the cost of symmetry.

I do not think there is a best way to push the relay up.

The 1 relay can work as follows:

1 1

1NT spades (not canape) or three-suited
... 2 relay with 2 three-suited and 2 up two-suited with spades either with a free step or down a step

2 clubs
... 2 relay and standard symmetric continuations

2 Single-suited hearts
... 2 relay and then 2 and higher standard symmetric with 6331 etc down one step

2 and higher diamonds starting at reverser and otherwise standard two-suited relay.

The 1 relay could work as follows:

1 1NT

2 clubs as for 1 relay

2 single-suited or spades and hearts
... 2 relay with 2 hearts and 2NT HS etc pushed up one step but since 5332 is removed this is only up one step for 6322 and 7222 hands from standard symmetric (but also up one step from the 1 relay shown above). The relay after 2 showing spades is up one step - 2NT is the relay and 3 shows high shortage etc. This is the inevitable cost of this method.

2 and above diamonds as for the 1 relay.

I repeat, you can shuffle these around but you can never gain steps.
Wayne Burrows

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dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#13 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 06:46

Sam and I play five card majors but the relay is one step higher. We use 1S-2C and:

2D = clubs or one suited without shortness
2H = diamonds
2S = one suited with shortness
2N+ = heart
This loses a step on some hand types, which we try to compensate with relay breaks. One could make 1NT the relay and add;

2C = only four spades after which
… 2H = longer clubs
… 2S = 4144/40(45)
… 2N+ = longer diamonds

Over 1H everything is one step lower, but you do have more three suiters to resolve after 1H-1S-1NT-2C-2H.

This isn’t any more “efficient” than the other structures given (they will all be about the same unless you remove some patterns from the 1S opening) but it does leave you well positioned to break relays if you include some non-GF hands.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#14 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 10:14

Thanks for the responses. I should have been more explicit that this was a paper exercise inspired by https://sites.google...iew/ulfn66/home, and the idea was to try and see if we could come up with a workable system based on it that uses symmetric relays. As many of you have noted, the arithmetic makes it impossible to fit more than a certain number of shapes, so it's just a question of organizing for practicality within the given constraints.

The objective was to see if assuming the following opening structure, whether it's possible to stop at a reasonable spot in 2M / 2m, while trying to retain +1 w.r.t. symmetric. In other words, 1 - 1 can be natural or start of GFR, and 1 - 1N may be start of a GFR.

1: 16+
1: All balanced hands, including 5M332, occasionally (13)54, 11-14
1M: 4+M unbalanced, can be canapé; can have OM, but not LL
1N: (14+)15-17
2m: Natural, 6+ with a good suit; may have 4CM (open 1M with a poor suit)
2M: Preempts
2N: 10-14, 5-5 majors
3: 10-14, 5-5m
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#15 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 17:36

View Postfoobar, on 2021-July-27, 10:14, said:

The objective was to see if assuming the following opening structure, whether it's possible to stop at a reasonable spot in 2M / 2m, while trying to retain +1 w.r.t. symmetric.

If you are willing to forgo invites it is easy - just use S1 as the GF relay and other responses as nat nf (with 1 - 1NT showing ). If you want invites then either use Zelandakh's INV+ relay method or take S2 for your GF relay.
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#16 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 21:52

View PostGilithin, on 2021-July-27, 17:36, said:

If you are willing to forgo invites it is easy - just use S1 as the GF relay and other responses as nat nf (with 1 - 1NT showing ). If you want invites then either use Zelandakh's INV+ relay method or take S2 for your GF relay.

Think such a structure is best suited for invite+. It's likely possible to get away with 1 without the inversion by arranging for opener's rebids with length accordingly.
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