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ACBL-legal 4-card relay

#21 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 05:39

View Postjohnu, on 2021-July-24, 14:24, said:

A 2 suited 2 is clearly natural under the new rules. In the definition of "Natural"

2(b) Any opening bid at the two-level or higher showing 5 or more cards in the suit
bid.

2(i) A call is still Natural if it also shows distribution in another suit

If 2 could be only 4 spades, it would no longer be natural.

In addition, 2 promising 4+ is still “quasi natural”, again still with possible implications for other suits. “Artificial” is reserved for things neither natural nor quasi natural.

3(b) Any opening bid at the two-level or higher showing 4 or more cards in the suit
bid

In Basic, weak twos are Natural (5+) and weak 3’s require 6+ (with some Hcp requirements on 2’s)
In Basic+, weak twos and 3’s are Natural (5+), (with fewer hcp restrictions on 2’s)
In Open, various types of weak or possibly weak Artificial openings are disallowed, but natural and quasi natural (4+) are fine, subject to a few hcp restrictions
In Open+, somewhat fewer weak or possibly weak Artificial openings are disallowed (usually to protect the top players from things like 2 multi)

I have yet to figure out if I want to preempt with 4 card suits for a weak two, ie 2H majors / Ekrens (4+/4+), but it’s fine in Open, or similar things that have the suit they bid.
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#22 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 07:29

View Postrbforster, on 2021-July-26, 05:39, said:

In addition, 2 promising 4+ is still “quasi natural”, again still with possible implications for other suits. “Artificial” is reserved for things neither natural nor quasi natural.

3(b) Any opening bid at the two-level or higher showing 4 or more cards in the suit
bid

In Basic, weak twos are Natural (5+) and weak 3’s require 6+ (with some Hcp requirements on 2’s)
In Basic+, weak twos and 3’s are Natural (5+), (with fewer hcp restrictions on 2’s)
In Open, various types of weak or possibly weak Artificial openings are disallowed, but natural and quasi natural (4+) are fine, subject to a few hcp restrictions
In Open+, somewhat fewer weak or possibly weak Artificial openings are disallowed (usually to protect the top players from things like 2 multi)

I have yet to figure out if I want to preempt with 4 card suits for a weak two, ie 2H majors / Ekrens (4+/4+), but it’s fine in Open, or similar things that have the suit they bid.


While it may be good to know that it's okay to open 2 as "five hearts + five of a black suit", it should be noted that such bids fit the definition of Artificial Calls in the Laws of Bridge, no matter what the ACBL chooses to call them.

I'm just suggesting that it's not a good look to describe bids that are clearly Artificial (according to definitions in the Laws) as "natural". Semantics ....
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#23 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 14:02

View Postpilun, on 2021-July-26, 07:29, said:

While it may be good to know that it's okay to open 2 as "five hearts + five of a black suit", it should be noted that such bids fit the definition of Artificial Calls in the Laws of Bridge, no matter what the ACBL chooses to call them.

I'm just suggesting that it's not a good look to describe bids that are clearly Artificial (according to definitions in the Laws) as "natural". Semantics ....

I was just going off the ACBL’s definition since that’s where I play, and for their purposes Artificial is anything not Natural or Quasinatural, so for unbalanced preempts this means denying 4+ cards in the suit bid.

https://web2.acbl.or...AttachmentD.pdf
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#24 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 15:18

I agree with Pilun, and in fact raised this during the comment period; and suggested using the no-longer-used in the Laws term "Conventional" to avoid this issue. I also suggested that for some terms where the "bridge" meaning differed significantly from the defined meaning[*] that this be reviewed or clarified, or at least clearly noted.

But the PTB said no, it was too late, and obvious anyway. So we have the concept of agreements that are Natural for Convention Chart regulation and Alertability, but Artificial for the purposes of the Laws. Which is totally irrelevant to players, as the only uses of artificial call in the Laws are:
  • when insufficient bids or calls out of rotation are artificial (the Director will make that decision and give the correct ruling);
  • setting a default of Special Partnership Understanding (but the RA can say that anything they want is a SPU if they care, and the ACBL effectively does);
  • RA can restrict the use of psychic artificial calls, but not non-artificial ones (The ACBL has decided it only wants to disallow psyching of Artificial calls. That's a subset, and therefore allowed. When the time comes that someone psychs their "hearts-and-a-minor" overcall of 1NT, I expect it to be loud and antagonistic, but the regulation is clear).

So, annoying for those who try to know the rules, and for those from out-of-country that have to try to understand how the ACBL world works (either here, or when imported to play in the Spingold). But not, actually, a problem.

* Who would believe that a mixed double raise (or 1M-3(M-1)) is a Preempt? Or that the EBU's example of a Psychic Control - the non-lead-directing double of 3NT by a psycher - just isn't for the purposes of Convention Chart legality? Who would have believed that there's a difference between a 3-suited takeout and a Three-Suited takeout?
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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