[inquiry]

In response to critism over management of the BPO polls, I have decided to
1) Restate the purpose/vision of the polls in my mind (bold places below)
2) Offer the job of host/moderator to anyone who has a clearer vision
3) Lacking that, offer the job of moderator up on a rotating scale so others can have the "fun" of directing it.

Ok, the first part of the Vision of the poll. BBO Advanced is a system whose convention card is currently on essentially every BBO players computer. It was designed as a "framework" that two experts could quickly agree too and sit down together on BBO and have a fairly high level game. So the vision, as it is, was to help refine the BBO Advanced system by filling in gaps in its meaning, without adding new things to it. On this issue, as it relates to BBO advanced, I said...

Quote

1) I didn't "dictate" BBO Advanced. This is the "standard" system as written on BBO. There is a BBO Advanced convention card saved on everyones computer.

2) I prefer not to play Capp.. and ask each partner I fnally trick into playing BBO Advance to change to somthing esle. But here we are "stuck" with it.

3) As far a defining how to continue after "lebehnshol" and the like, we could do that, but that would ruin a lot of the fun to see how the EXPERTS play it with only the information provided on the web site.

4) we may be defining, based upon how these experts and non-panelist vote, what the BBO (or at least BBF) standards will be.

In fact, Fred weighed in and offered us a challenge of sorts, that it was my hope by expert participation in the quizes, we could address... when he said...

Quote

Fred said "My original plan was to eventually turn these areas of our site into comprehensive system notes with plenty of example hands and quizzes so that people could test their knowledge of these systems...... I recall thinking that this was an important goal to achieve.

Probably there are people out there who would be interested on working on this project (which would involve trying to come up with a consensus as to what various bids should mean and then creating .lin files to present the information).  "

So one issue of this vision is some questions will deal have to deal with "system" as much as judgement, but only in the whelm of answering questions like, "what is the expert expected response to michaels? Is a reverse game force or forcing to three level only, when would experts ---assume---- 2NT bid to be scrambling even if it is not written on the cc, etc. There is also an entire system/judgement area where even if a conventional bid is avaible, when should you choose not to use it? I can think of at least two hands that fall into this category, the hand wiht solid diamonds and major support and if that hand is too good for 4♦ jump bid, and the serious 3NT hand (if playing it) as would that hand fit the criteria given wasted values in hearts? Convention abuse from overuse of gerber and blackwood to michaels cue-bid without the right values, is a constant problem and having experts discuss when (and when not) to use a convention that is in their bag of tricks is EXTREMELY useful and combines issue of SYSTEM and judgement.

Adam, correctly pointed out that the first poll was more "system" oriented. In fact, he is right. As I said at the time of that poll,

Quote

The problems for this poll were selected to based upon a theme (bet you can guess it) to establish the “standard” for future polls.

. The "theme" was to try to find the minimum and maximum hands the panel would consider for certain auction. If I am going to conduct polls where the auction has progressed a couple of bids, I have to be fairly sure the panel would (as a group), agree with the initial bids. As you can imagine, this is not always easy as shown by the variety of bids choosen even on fairly simply hands. So the first poll hands were directed towards this...

1A would you open 1, 2, 3D, or pass in fourth seat, 1B - would the panel open with 11 hcp fair distribution but a crappy suit, 1C how would the panel handle a hand with 9 sure tricks in hearts but not strong enough for a traditional 2C opening bid (probling minimum for 2C and naymats/4H, 1D - woud the panel raise diamonds or show spades on this auctoin with a minimum responding hand, 1E - What does the panel expect as a minimum michaels cue-bid from partner when red versus white, and if expecting good hand how would they continue, 1F - The panels views on minimum rebid after partner's takeout double (is this hand with good suit enough?). And the last one, the panels view on how to continue in a competitve situation with poor distribution, minimum values, but some redeeming features.

So, while Adam was highly critical of the "system" nature of the questions in the first poll, they served two important purposes. One is they helped with the defining of some of the vagueness of the bidding framework, and second, they showed me that the panel is actually fairly aggressive bidders and will often act on minimum values. Future polls will still probe gaps in the system, and help define what the "experts" consider as the standard agreement in different situations.

The second part of the Vision is to provide a place where the rank and file votes can submit hands, where the poll turns around quickly, where the voters can discuss their bids with other votes and even with the panel, and where the votes can help clarify the system (as we did with Serious 3NT). This interactive nature of this poll makes it unique, I think. But we can help Fred out here too. Through these polls and the discussion afterwards we can help refine BBO Advance. Perhaps some members will be wililng to help take the results here and create lin files to fullfl Freds vision for the system notes area on BBO gaming site. Time will tell, lets hope that the polls continue.

Ben

[badderzboy]

Ben,

Great post,

The purpose is spot on,


I hope that you do not stop running the mgt of the polls as you have done a great job so far, it is natural that people would tweak this and that but they should also remember that missing just one of their favourite bits is irrelevant compared to the people who don't play in the US etc. We could always try bidding using WJ2000 or ACOL... (ps I love ACOL honest)

The job is voluntary and onorous as just in the game we all have different opinions hence the interesting discussions that ensue.

People should remember that you are giving up valuable time and effort free to provide these stimulating polls.

I suspect it's a bit like chasing subs at the club, no one thanks the person collecting the money but are happy to criticise when a mistake happens.

Answering the polls isn't that painful as I can look at the convention card whilst bidding so there is no memory load to it. I can even look up these conventions if I think the poll MAY need it which might aid my learning process.

YOU ARE 100% correct in having a fixed system - even for me there are times when you get the perfect hand for Convention A which u play only with partner B.
People can always post after the results, this hand was perfect for XYZ...


Your scores are based on the experts responses so fair enough so far, we can always think we are right anyway and we are not playing for money or national titles of course!

In summary, any criticism is unfair and keep up the excellent work.

[luke warm]

if someone wants to take over, more power to 'em... as for me, i'm beggin' ya - puhleezz keep doing it, ben... it's a tough job and you handle it outstandingly

[Double !]

FWIW

1) I think you and Elianna deserve a heck of a lot of credit and thanks for your time and effort.

2) This here forum seems to be a microcosm of the real bridge world.

3) If anyone gives you grief, ignore it. It's not worth your or her time to pay attention to it.

4) Think of this as a labor of love. If you stopped then you'd be
"bored outta your mind"!!!!!!

(ye got a lotta support out here)

DHL

[bearmum]

Double !, on Jun 11 2005, 02:21 PM, said:

FWIW

1)  I think you and Elainna deserve a heck of a lot of credit and thanks for your time and effort.

2)  This here forum seems to be a microcosm of the real bridge world.

3)  If anyone gives you grief, ignore it.  It's not worth your or her time to pay attention to it.

4)  Think of this as a labor of love.  If you stopped then you'd be
"bored outta your mind"!!!!!!

(ye got a lotta support out here)

DHL

I second this 200%

TY HEAPS BEN AND ELIANNA (name edited )

I hope you do not discontinue these polls, even though I have posted MY thoughts in the relevant strings regarding my stance on BBO Adv --- I will still enter my answers (even though probably MOST of them will be incorrect )

This post has been edited by bearmum: 2005-June-13, 03:18

[Elianna]

I'll keep doing this, I just know that I would get sad if the questions got to be more and more about if one understands the system, and if a lot of intermediate/advanced decided that they were too hard or boring to participate, and if beginners just found the explanations incomprehensible.

I'm not saying we're there now, I don't even really think that we're close to that stage, but some people seemed to prefer that stage, and I just know that it would make me sad.

But so far, I'm pretty happy, we get new people to participate so it's nice to see new names (especially those who don't post with the frequency of others), but it's kind of sad that there are a not so small group of people who haven't sent in their answers yet, and haven't said that they're not going to (I find this sad because I feel it's likely that I'll yet again get several late replies, and I always find it sad telling people that their ballot was untimely. )

PS. My name is spelled E - L - I - A - N - N - A (of course, you don't need to capitalize the later letters). I realize that "Ben" is easier to spell, that's why I'm helping many of you out now by spelling my name. If it's easier, you can call me "Eli" (but only if you pronounce it so it rhymes with "Kelly")

[Double !]

Oops, sorry Elianna

a little bit of dyslexia there. or was it dysgraphia....(dystypia?)

Thank Dog that I don't make more letter reversals, transpositions, and omissions than I already make given these 3 eyes that I was born with.

Anyway, sincere apology.

[han]

I don't know what the cause for this thread was, and I don't think I want to know. Even though I wasn't able to send in my votes for the first two polls, I found the hands very interesting, and I really enjoyed reading the panels thoughts. I also enjoyed the discussions afterwards, and it seemed to me that many of us did. So thanks to Ben and Elianna, and please continue the good work.

[Double !]

Hannie, on Jun 12 2005, 01:11 PM, said:

I don't know what the cause for this thread was, and I don't think I want to know. Even though I wasn't able to send in my votes for the first two polls, I found the hands very interesting, and I really enjoyed reading the panels thoughts. I also enjoyed the discussions afterwards, and it seemed to me that many of us did. So thanks to Ben and Elianna, and please continue the good work.

can't say for sure, but I suspect that there's been people who have, shall we say, expressed dissenting opinions about scoring of various answers toward our esteemed host (judge and court reporter), giving him undeserved grief and aggrevation. If so, Ben, I compliment you for your restraint. It can be a thankless job. ......but you do it so well.

[P_Marlowe]

Double !, on Jun 12 2005, 08:00 PM, said:

Hannie, on Jun 12 2005, 01:11 PM, said:

I don't know what the cause for this thread was, and I don't think I want to know. Even though I wasn't able to send in my votes for the first two polls, I found the hands very interesting, and I really enjoyed reading the panels thoughts. I also enjoyed the discussions afterwards, and it seemed to me that many of us did. So thanks to Ben and Elianna, and please continue the good work.

can't say for sure, but I suspect that there's been people who have, shall we say, expressed dissenting opinions about scoring of various answers toward our esteemed host (judge and court reporter), giving him undeserved grief and aggrevation. If so, Ben, I compliment you for your restraint. It can be a thankless job. ......but you do it so well.

Hi,

I was one of guys, who raised a complain regarding the
scores, the ccomplain was made in the relevant thread,
and Ben adjusted the scoring.

Ben is the moderateur, i.e. as long as he does the job,
he has the right of the final word regarding system and
score, that's it.
If one can not live with his desisions, one can stop
participating, or start a 2nd Poll, that's the right of
participants.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Double !]

What difference does it make?
Is it a blow to our egos if a bid doesn't "score" well

Heck, I got a round zero for one of my "creative" answers last time. Didn't complain about it (after all, this is just cyberspace)

Interestingly, I gave the hand to two people whom I consider to be quite expert, and both eventually agreed with me. No, I'm not running, pleading to have my score increased.....IT DOESN'T MATTER. I use these hands to learn something because, the more I know, the more I realize how little I know. Just enjoy the darned site!

[luis]

Ben you are doing an outstanding job as the moderator and Elianna is doing a fantastic job as well. If it were up to me I'd love you to keep doing this forever.