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2 hearts or Negative double? 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 08:34




Bid 2 Hearts or negative double or something else

What is the advantage of your choice
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#2 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 08:51

2H. Although there would be advantages to showing both majors if lho jumps in diamonds, I don’t base my bidding on what opps may do. I have enough to bid naturally hearts then spades so that is my initial plan. I can’t imagine finding a 5-3 heart fit another way.
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#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 12:29

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-18, 08:51, said:

2H. Although there would be advantages to showing both majors if lho jumps in diamonds, I don’t base my bidding on what opps may do. I have enough to bid naturally hearts then spades so that is my initial plan. I can’t imagine finding a 5-3 heart fit another way.


agree. cannot imagine the ops have enough points/distribution to make life difficult with a 3/4 raise. as long as partner knows that 2 is unlimited not a negative freebid.
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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 13:17

An easy wtf 2H

With so much in my hand (and this useless DK that prevents maybe getting the bidding back at 4 or 5D), I can bid S later and clearly show I have 5(+)/4(+).

Even partner will be able to show if they have 4-cd S over a « cheap » 2H.

Furthermore, if I X and bid H later, it will show a much weaker hand with 5 good or rather 6H and a tolerance for S, not necessarily 4.

I was always told when you have a natural and an artificial call, both legitimate, always go for the nat.
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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 14:11

I’ve seen a number of bad players make negative doubles with game going values and a long suit.

Here’s a typical one: 1H (2C) and we hold KQxx xx AKJxxx xx. I see a lot of doubles here, rather than the clearly correct 2D.

If you have a forcing hand, bid your long suit (assuming it’s 5+) and then if need be, you can later show a second suit, secure in the knowledge that you’re describing your shape and strength to partner.
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#6 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 19:22

Maybe the reason comes from "Better Bidding with Bergen: Vol.1"
On page 1. he gives 10 examples of how to respond to an opening of 1:
  • KQ65 Q874 QT42 8
  • T743 K53 KQ974 8
  • 9 A643 Q87654 96
  • AK54 A6 K8743 93
  • 8 Q953 AT87432 8
  • 8 8654 A654 Q753
  • 654 863 AQ5 8743
  • J954 Q6 87 AT654
  • 742 86 AK874 A65
  • QT4 KJ5 J6543 Q9

He only suggests bidding 1 on 3 of these hands.
Spoiler


This approach seems to fit well with the double of a 2 overcall = 4 of a major approach.
Mikeh's example fits somewhere in between two of Bergen's examples.

The difficulty that "bad players" - like me - face is comparing the quality of the Diamond suit with the quality of the four-card major in the context of the overall quality of the hand.
No doubt "good players" have better tools and experience resulting in better decisions.
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#7 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 19:34

View Postmikeh, on 2021-June-18, 14:11, said:

I've seen a number of bad players make negative doubles with game going values and a long suit.

Here's a typical one: 1H (2C) and we hold KQxx xx AKJxxx xx. I see a lot of doubles here, rather than the clearly correct 2D.

If you have a forcing hand, bid your long suit (assuming it's 5+) and then if need be, you can later show a second suit, secure in the knowledge that you're describing your shape and strength to partner.

I don't know if this should hold for all auctions and levels. E.g. Say you have a strong x46x hand, auction goes 1c-(2s)-3d-(3s)-4d-(p)-?. Now is 4H clearly an offer to play? What if you want to cue bid? What if you play kickback?

To me, it's easier if 3d denies 4 cd hearts, with this shape double then bid 4d/5d later. I feel that 3 level GF minor freebids should deny 4 cd other major.

Count me as a bad player I guess?
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 20:46

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-18, 19:22, said:

Maybe the reason comes from "Better Bidding with Bergen: Vol.1"
On page 1. he gives 10 examples of how to respond to an opening of 1:
  • KQ65 Q874 QT42 8
  • T743 K53 KQ974 8
  • 9 A643 Q87654 96
  • AK54 A6 K8743 93
  • 8 Q953 AT87432 8
  • 8 8654 A654 Q753
  • 654 863 AQ5 8743
  • J954 Q6 87 AT654
  • 742 86 AK874 A65
  • QT4 KJ5 J6543 Q9

He only suggests bidding 1 on 3 of these hands.
Spoiler


This approach seems to fit well with the double of a 2 overcall = 4 of a major approach.
Mikeh's example fits somewhere in between two of Bergen's examples.

The difficulty that "bad players" - like me - face is comparing the quality of the Diamond suit with the quality of the four-card major in the context of the overall quality of the hand.
No doubt "good players" have better tools and experience resulting in better decisions.

I don’t understand your point. How to respond to 1C when holding a 4 card major and longer diamonds has little to do with how to deal with an overcall.
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#9 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 21:05

View Postmikeh, on 2021-June-18, 20:46, said:

I don't understand your point. How to respond to 1C when holding a 4 card major and longer diamonds has little to do with how to deal with an overcall.


Perhaps I have misunderstood, but after an overcall, I thought that it was usual to double to show a four-card major (as appropriate) or bid the five-card suit.
In which case the same issue applies about whether to show the 4CM(via a double) or to bid the diamonds.
In that sense, I thought the problem was essentially the same.


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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 21:12

View PostStephen Tu, on 2021-June-18, 19:34, said:

I don't know if this should hold for all auctions and levels. E.g. Say you have a strong x46x hand, auction goes 1c-(2s)-3d-(3s)-4d-(p)-?. Now is 4H clearly an offer to play? What if you want to cue bid? What if you play kickback?

To me, it's easier if 3d denies 4 cd hearts, with this shape double then bid 4d/5d later. I feel that 3 level GF minor freebids should deny other major.

Count me as a bad player I guess?

Please explain to me....I’m serious, not being sarcastic, how opener can tell how strong your hand is if the auction goes

1C (2S) x (3S)
P

Opener will pass with all balanced or semi-balanced minimums....agree?

Now as responder you hold x Axxx KQJxxx xx

Are you passing 3S? I doubt it.

I expect you’d bid 4D, tho maybe you double? If you double, what does partner need to leave it in? And wouldn’t he normally play you for a less directional hand if you double?

If you bid 4D, how do you bid if I change your hand to be x KQxx AKJxxx xx? Please don’t say that you’d bid 5D over 3S.....forcing opener to bid 5H with his 3=4=3=3 hand.

In my style, I double with the first hand and then bid 4D, pretty much guaranteeing this kind of hand and shape. Opener can pull to 4H with a four card holding.

On the second, I bid 3D then 4H. Showing 4 hearts, longer diamonds and gf values. Sort of what I have

Btw, if the auction goes 1C (2S) 3D (3S) 4D........I somehow doubt opener has 4 hearts with any frequency. Partner will usually either pass 3S or double with the vast majority of hands consistent with this auction where he happens to hold 4 hearts. I’m discussing this in the context of a strong 2N system.

.I think it’s fairly standard for the double to be extra values with no clear direction.

If he has 4 hearts and bids 4D he pretty much has to be 1435, with a non-minimum. At worst I play 5D on a 6-3 rather than 4H on a 4=4, and while that will once in a while lose a game swing, I’d suspect there will be hands where 4H fails and 5D is cold...picture a weak 4=4 heart fit with pitches from myhand on clubs.

And, btw, I know you’re a good player😀
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#11 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 22:25

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-18, 21:05, said:

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but after an overcall, I thought that it was usual to double to show a four-card major (as appropriate) or bid the five-card suit.
In which case the same issue applies about whether to show the 4CM(via a double) or to bid the diamonds.
In that sense, I thought the problem was essentially the same.


Read about Walsh, up the line and transfer Walsh. These are 3 quite different ways to structure responses to 1C, and even amongst these, there are variants.

But the main point is that one responds to 1C with modest values (for example, I’d never pass 1C with, say KJxxx xxx xx xxx, and doubt that many good players would either....and that’s not the weakest hand on which I’d bid 1S (in my case, 1H as a transfer)

Whereas after even a 1H overcall, I need a little more with which to bid. One of the purposes of responding to 1C on modest values is to deter the opps from bidding. Once they’ve overcalled, that is more or less moot, and now we want to make sound competitive decisions...’we’ including partner as an equal member of the partnership.

And once the bidding gets higher, the values we promise change, compared to a one level response.

In summary, competitive bidding is significantly different from uncontested bidding for these and other reasons
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#12 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-June-19, 11:05

View Postmikeh, on 2021-June-18, 21:12, said:

Please explain to me....I'm serious, not being sarcastic, how opener can tell how strong your hand is if the auction goes

1C (2S) x (3S)
P

Opener will pass with all balanced or semi-balanced minimums....agree?
I would bid with heart fit and no spade wastage even with minimum. Partner was happy to hear 3H, how unhappy can 4H be? I feel bidding takes pressure off responder to bid again, and will reach some low hcp games that make, and in other cases might be a good sac against a making 3S. Admittedly I lose if both contracts down 1 and your partnership finds p-p, and also my range for 4H is wide, but to me that is somewhat inevitable in the face of significant preemption.


Quote

Now as responder you hold x Axxx KQJxxx xx

Are you passing 3S? I doubt it.

I expect you'd bid 4D, tho maybe you double? If you double, what does partner need to leave it in? And wouldn't he normally play you for a less directional hand if you double?

If you bid 4D, how do you bid if I change your hand to be x KQxx AKJxxx xx? Please don't say that you'd bid 5D over 3S.....forcing opener to bid 5H with his 3=4=3=3 hand.

If you want 4D to be NF, which I agree with, then I don't see why 4H can't be a distributional choice between 4H/(I have club support/self sufficient diamonds) Single suited hearts can all bid 3h/4h the round before, no? What else can 4H be?

Auction goes 1c-(2H)-3d-(p)-? Opener has 4 cd spades and heart stopper. 3nt or 3S?

Also, playing my way, now I get to show 5OM-6m hands cleanly, like 3d then 4H without input from partner can be 5-6 slam invite.
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