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Enough? (nz teams)

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 05:37


Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 06:26

This depends on your overcalling style, hence what partner needs for his 3 raise (and how much you need to X then bid). Also what 3 means, is this a stop for NT ? is it a game try ? Is it a full reverse ?

You are guessing massively, does partner have xxx, xx, Axxx, xxxx where game just needs a 2-1 trump break or Kxx, xxx, KQJx, xxx where you're probably already high enough if you don't have a club higher than the 6. (edit: partner probably ought to bid 3N on the second one thoug,h although that's not guaranteed to make)
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#3 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 07:07

I read 3 as less than a limit raise with 4+ and no control in the unbid suits so loosing 2 and a ?
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#4 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 07:36

even if partner has A you probably have a loser along with 2. partner did not say 3 after 3 so that hint at no control also. so I would play in boring 4 contract here. but I like better X instead of 2 overcall though a 3 reply by partner would make life difficult...
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#5 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 08:00

Perhaps simplification helps:regardless of meaning 3h was a move toward game. Partner declined. Is there enough reason to override that decision? I think not.
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 08:25

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-09, 08:00, said:

Perhaps simplification helps:regardless of meaning 3h was a move toward game. Partner declined. Is there enough reason to override that decision? I think not.


Depends whether this is already supermax for a 2 overcall, there are plenty of hands where partner is not going to realise he's looking at gold rather than the pile he thinks he is, Kxx, xx, xxxx, xxxx for example, and less where he will overvalue his hand for a suit contract. Most of the AKQs he can hold are useful, the only exceptions are KQ.
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#7 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 10:12

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-June-09, 08:25, said:

Depends whether this is already supermax for a 2 overcall, there are plenty of hands where partner is not going to realise he's looking at gold rather than the pile he thinks he is, Kxx, xx, xxxx, xxxx for example, and less where he will overvalue his hand for a suit contract. Most of the AKQs he can hold are useful, the only exceptions are KQ.


All true. Which crystal ball do you look into to know which type hand he holds, though? I agree that what he is likely to hold is the hand on which we should base our bid. But can we even come up with a reasonable guesstimate of that hand? Could the raise not be Kx, Jxx, KQxxx, xxx?

The question, I think, is not what hand is possible but what type hand is most likely. And I don't know the answer.
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 11:14

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-09, 10:12, said:

All true. Which crystal ball do you look into to know which type hand he holds, though? I agree that what he is likely to hold is the hand on which we should base our bid. But can we even come up with a reasonable guesstimate of that hand? Could the raise not be Kx, Jxx, KQxxx, xxx?

The question, I think, is not what hand is possible but what type hand is most likely. And I don't know the answer.


I assumed with a hand like that he'd bid 2 on the way, we certainly would but that may not be standard. I think he's most likely to hold 3 spades but far from certain.
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#9 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 12:54

I would pass 4 for a number of reasons.

Partner has made a simple raise when they had a cue bid available as a passed hand, so I expect the Q and a card would be sufficient. Then they've heard me make a game try opposite a weak raise and still cannot help, so I'm not expecting very much more than this when partner had 3 and 3NT available too.

When you are non-vulnerable, it is not the end of the world if you miss a game although you'd clearly prefer not to do so.

But at some point I have to trust my partner to evaluate their hand, knowing that it will be difficult.
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 15:22

Am I the only one who really dislikes 2 here, with AKxx in the other major and clubs easily biddable after X?
None of my partners would be easily convinced that I hold this hand.
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 15:46

View Postpescetom, on 2021-June-09, 15:22, said:

Am I the only one who really dislikes 2 here, with AKxx in the other major and clubs easily biddable after X?
None of my partners would be easily convinced that I hold this hand.


Our overcalls can easily be that good, but on this shape I'd be tempted to double.
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-10, 10:08

3 shows reverse strength, we are not pushing to the 4 level opposite a passed partner with much less.



While I think it is obvious that E should have bid something other than 4, have I taken overcalls to the extreme, as some are suggesting?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#13 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-June-10, 11:39

What do you do as West with:
Languish in 3 with 3NT on if East has a spade stopper and a trick? If "yes, partner doesn't have to have that", then how much stronger do you need to be (K? seventh club? Q?)

Having said that, I think East was lazy or pessimistic. Not sure how much I downgrade that pancake if I'm *not* a passed hand, but if I'm not bidding 2 with an absolute max pass*, Qxxx support, and two QT, when am I? If I did that, and you bid 3, then I can bid 4 "no spade stopper" and you at least know I have *some* cards for you (like very likely the A).

* most people in my area would open this hand. Playing K/S I can't, but playing a strong NT, it's absolute minimum, but obvious with the AK. If it's not an opener for your pair, surely it's "almost opener" enough to encourage when partner makes a 2-level overcall?
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#14 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-June-10, 11:49

View Postmycroft, on 2021-June-10, 11:39, said:

What do you do as West with:
Languish in 3 with 3NT on if East has a spade stopper and a trick? If "yes, partner doesn't have to have that", then how much stronger do you need to be (K? seventh club? Q?)

Having said that, I think East was lazy or pessimistic. Not sure how much I downgrade that pancake if I'm *not* a passed hand, but if I'm not bidding 2 with an absolute max pass*, Qxxx support, and two QT, when am I? If I did that, and you bid 3, then I can bid 4 "no spade stopper" and you at least know I have *some* cards for you (like very likely the A).

* most people in my area would open this hand. Playing K/S I can't, but playing a strong NT, it's absolute minimum, but obvious with the AK. If it's not an opener for your pair, surely it's "almost opener" enough to encourage when partner makes a 2-level overcall?

Agreed 2 is my East bid, which sets West up for game, and then 4 knowing West's strength is also an underbid
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-10, 11:50

View Postmycroft, on 2021-June-10, 11:39, said:

What do you do as West with:
Languish in 3 with 3NT on if East has a spade stopper and a trick? If "yes, partner doesn't have to have that", then how much stronger do you need to be (K? seventh club? Q?)

Having said that, I think East was lazy or pessimistic. Not sure how much I downgrade that pancake if I'm *not* a passed hand, but if I'm not bidding 2 with an absolute max pass*, Qxxx support, and two QT, when am I? If I did that, and you bid 3, then I can bid 4 "no spade stopper" and you at least know I have *some* cards for you (like very likely the A).

* most people in my area would open this hand. Playing K/S I can't, but playing a strong NT, it's absolute minimum, but obvious with the AK. If it's not an opener for your pair, surely it's "almost opener" enough to encourage when partner makes a 2-level overcall?

I likely languish in 3, bidding 3 to ask for a stopper seems ill advised with 82

I would open with Easts hand 1nt 12-14
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#16 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-10, 12:15

 mycroft, on 2021-June-10, 11:39, said:

What do you do as West with:
Languish in 3 with 3NT on if East has a spade stopper and a trick? If "yes, partner doesn't have to have that", then how much stronger do you need to be (K? seventh club? Q?)


Having said that, I think East was lazy or pessimistic. Not sure how much I downgrade that pancake if I'm *not* a passed hand, but if I'm not bidding 2 with an absolute max pass*, Qxxx support, and two QT, when am I? If I did that, and you bid 3, then I can bid 4 "no spade stopper" and you at least know I have *some* cards for you (like very likely the A).

* most people in my area would open this hand. Playing K/S I can't, but playing a strong NT, it's absolute minimum, but obvious with the AK. If it's not an opener for your pair, surely it's "almost opener" enough to encourage when partner makes a 2-level overcall?

With the hand you posted, you play 3 clubs. Just because a contract makes doesn’t mean it can or should be bid. Winning bridge is about putting yourself on the right side of the odds over and over.
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#17 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2021-June-10, 12:38

I was wondering whether to bid 5 or 6. Pass never even occurred to me. The title says that it's teams, so I'm assuming IMPs. If it's not, you should mention that.
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#18 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2021-June-10, 13:28

your partner's bidding was absolutely pathetic.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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