[Double !]

The_Hog, on Jun 13 2005, 04:22 AM, said:

You are playing a canape system - the Caroline Club, if you want to know. opener has shown 5/6 very good C, 4D and a max hand - 14-15. Your bid is?

Was playing in main bridge club late a few nights ago. A new P tapped in as my partner with the SN of djb. He had a profile with canape, strong club. 10-12 NT etc. To make a long story short, it was Doug Bone, one of the authors of the Caroline Club system, and he was somewhat surprised that I recognized the profile (actually wasn't sure if it was Caroline club or a slightly different system.)

Now, if I hadn't shown my true colors (aka: inept declarer play) and blew a cold strip and endplay....................................

[civill]

After 4♠,5♥ is optional.

[the hog]

Winstonm, on Jun 14 2005, 10:16 AM, said:

Quote

I think if partner bids 4S you really must bid 6D Winstonm

Perhaps different styles, but I must humbly disagree. It is pard who knows he holds:

x,
Qx
AKxx
AQxxxx

instead of

x,
Kxx,
AKJx
A10xxxx

After making a try, showing the heart Ace, what else could north have to then sign off except the minor suit cards? With the second hand, if north held xxxx, Ax, Qxxx, KQx he would not sign off - the sign off then must be a missing minor suit card to my way of thinking. Close decision, but then isn't that what separates the good from bad result?

WinstonM

I don't think your example hand, (I assume Kx of H), would qualify for the 3C bid Winston. The club suit is supposed to be of really good quality for the bid. I'm not sure if AT to 6 would qualify.

[Winstonm]

Quote

The club suit is supposed to be of really good quality for the bid.

Obviously this is a problem with me trying to bid with a sytem of which I am unfamiliar.

WinstonM

[han]

So what happened at the table Ron?

[beatrix45]

One should certainly offer 4♥ to send the message that game seems proper and slam is possible, but I don't really want to hear 4♠. That would indicate that the minor suits are probably not solid. We are a little short on high cards.

We are hoping to win five or six diamonds, five or six clubs and the ace of hearts. For this to happen without having to win a minor suit finesse, partner needs a singleton spade, and, even then, a 4-1 diamond split could be fatal. I can't see how seven diamonds would be biddable even if it were a laydown.

And, bye the bye, why have the opponents stopped bidding with nine or ten hearts, nearly half the high cards and, maybe, a secondary fit in spades?

I am curious, what actually did happen?

[the hog]

The full hands were
Jxxx
Ax
QTxx
K98

x
Qx
AK9x
AQTxxx

We only managed to get to 5D, I'm afraid. Partner berated himself for not finding the 6th after 4S.

[Winstonm]

The difficulty I had with this hand is that there is no agreed-upon suit. Sure, we all want to make a slam try with 4H; we like it when pard gives us 4S. My thinking here is that I've shown the interest and control with 4H; pard has shown the spade control; it is now up to me to show what suit I've been talking about, as IMHO, I've inferred minor-suit cards. We can't make 6 clubs and I know that but pard doesn't. Again, and it's only opinion, I want to try to let pard know that the acutal hand is worth slam, but x, Qx, AJxx, AQJxxx is at best a toss up.

Good hand to discuss with pard. Certainly need to be on the same page in the bidding to get there.

WinstonM

[mike777]

PLUG Alert for 4 card canape

but agree with all we get to 6 after 4s even with 3 card.

[Fluffy]

Well ron, you had perfect hand, and you still needed ♦ break.

Now think of you having a ♠ honnor doubleton and tell me your chances .

[the hog]

Kx
x
AKxx
AQTxxx

This would be a big C opening, but you are right I did have the perfect hand. The question is whether you can diagnose it.

[Winstonm]

Absolutely right. My methods depend on an intense degree of partnership understanding and trust - but it also gets us to a lot of extremely good and minimal high card slams. But I can't bid this way with just anyone.

Partner has to so some serious soul-searching to see how much he trusts my judgement. In this auction, with what I know, would I even be trying for slam (and please note that in our agreement my bidding is defined as a "mild" slam try) if I held: Kxx, Axx, 9xxx, Kxx. In my mind the answer is "no". What we need are tricks to bid a sub-strength slam, and my hand does not hold enough "filler" cards in your suits to be worth a try. However, Axx, xx, Q9xx, Kxx would warrant a try, as I can visualize the "perfect" minimum - with this hand you make the try but end in 5D. It is so close - don't think anyone can get there all the time.

Not saying it is best or even good. Just the way we have always done it and it has worked for us.

WinstonM

[PriorKnowledge]

PriorKnowledge, on Jun 13 2005, 06:29 AM, said:

4H. If partner q-bids 4S, I am bidding 6D.

ahem

[reisig]

4!h seems automatic - with an eye toward 6♦ (need ♣s for discards)

[awm]

The_Hog, on Jun 13 2005, 06:08 PM, said:

I think if partner bids 4S you really must bid 6D Winstonm.
You must evaluate ow good your minor cards really are.
Partner, (me), held
x
Qx
AK9x
AQTxxx
On the 3-2 D break 6D was laydown.

So my question is, why wouldn't the following hands qualify for the 4♣ bid and subsequent 4♠ cue:

x
Kx
KJxx
AQJxxx

-
KQx
Kxxx
AQxxxx

A
x
Kxxx
AQJxxxx

A
Kx
Jxxx
AQJxxx

Surely some (all?) of those hands would seem to have the requirements for the bidding, yet in each case 6♦ is less than fifty percent. I wouldn't put the blame on partner for not bidding slam -- I think opener can potentially bid on with both minors so totally locked up; in fact it would be quite reasonable to try some sort of keycard directly after the 4♥ call (you don't have two quick losers in any suit here!). Unless the 4♣ jump specifically promises very strong diamonds as well as six good clubs?

[the hog]

Easy answer to this - the Ds are simply not good enough, though your first hand somes close.

[beatrix45]

The_Hog, on Jun 14 2005, 03:36 PM, said:

The full hands were
Jxxx
Ax
QTxx
K98

x
Qx
AK9x
AQTxxx

We only managed to get to 5D, I'm afraid. Partner berated himself for not finding the 6th after 4S.

Thank you for starting this thread. This hand is becoming quite an eye opener for me. The next question is how should the auction develop after a 4♥ cue bid? There is no doubt that our modest 4♥ query has fallen on fertile ground. Opener's hand is not just a 4♣ bid, but it is a GOOD 4♣ bid. Still, it seems rash, at this point, for opener to jump to slam. For one thing, she doesn't even know for certain which suit we are supposed to play in.

Did the auction go 4♥ - pass - 4♠ at your table?

Do you play that a 4♠ cue bid by opener shows either first or second round control? About 30 years ago, just before I gave up serious bridge, I played the Blue Team club for a year or so. It used cue bids to show either first or second round control, and it was a comfortable and very playable method. So, let's say we are playing that way now. Do I want to make a 4♠ cue, or is it RKC time, or is there some other option?

Suppose opener makes the 4♠ control showing cue bid. Dorothy Hayden used to say that good slam bidding was a conversation. The 4♠ cue says "I have a spade control, and I like my hand for slam. It is better than average for my bidding up to now."

Now what would I reply? Do I just bid 6♦? Would 4NT here be RKC, and if so, for which suit(s)? Playing Blue Team I might have bid 4NT as a sort of waiting/relay bid called, as I recall, D/I for declaratory/interogatory, whatever that means. Would it be asking opener to bid six if she really, really liked her hand?

Maybe the lesson here is that the best good bidding can do on this hand is to give us a shot at bidding the slam if we take the right view.

[the hog]

Hi Trixi,
It is an interesting hand and I posted it basically because we did not bid 6D. Our auction was much more prosaic; the hand arose on day 3 of a long event and partner was getting tired - he had played in the seniors as well, so had played 5 days of bridge straight.

Quote:
"Did the auction go 4♥ - pass - 4♠ at your table?

Do you play that a 4♠ cue bid by opener shows either first or second round control? About 30 years ago, just before I gave up serious bridge, I played the Blue Team club for a year or so. It used cue bids to show either first or second round control, and it was a comfortable and very playable method. So, let's say we are playing that way now. Do I want to make a 4♠ cue, or is it RKC time, or is there some other option?"

Partner did not bid 4H, he bid a lazy 5D instead and berated himself in the bar afterwards. He prides himself on his bidding and finding inferences in the auction. I guess after playing with Nicola Smith for 20 years, that is not surprising. The 4H 4S auction is one we decided would lead to 6.

Yes, we do play 1st and 2nd round cues, and yes, we find they work fine.
Interestingly enough perhaps when opener is known to have 10 cards in 2 suits, as in C and D here, 4NT by responder should be some form of 6 Ace Blackwood. Its a thought anyway.

Cheers
Ron

[TheoKole]

4 Hearts Cuebid

Mild Slam Try, if Opener can Cuebid Spades then bid 6 diamonds to play in 4-4 fit



Cheers

[beatrix45]

The_Hog, on Jun 17 2005, 05:26 PM, said:

Yes, we do play 1st and 2nd round cues, and yes, we find they work fine.

I'm getting back into serious bridge just a little bit so far, so I'm thinking of things in general terms. It seems obvious to me that:

1) Cue bidding is the key to dealing with the majority of slammish hands.

2) In some auctions a cue bid could promise the ace and deny a lower ranking ace. For example, 1♠ - pass - 3♠ (limit raise) - pass - 4♦.

3) In other situations, cue bidding is conversational, a la Dorothy Hayden Truscott, so relaxing the ace only restriction pays big dividends - it just feels so good and it saves bidding space.

4) But, bidding is a language that both players need to understand, so are there any easily understood guidelines to help put one of these two animals back into their cage? A hand known to be weak, but strong given its bidding needs latitude to express its opinion by bidding second round controls if necessary.

5) From my own limited experience, it looks like it's better to define a cue bid as showing a first round control only makes sense for certain auctions. Let everything else show first or second round control plus something else to say.

6) What are the best players doing along this line?

7) Is it possible to codify the difference so that real life partnerships (other than two pros dedicated to the game) can tell one (first round control) from the other (first or second round control) based on the auction up to that point?