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3217 progressive

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 02:37


MP, both V

How do you plan to bid this hand, what do you open?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 03:27

In the style of my partnership I open 1 but this could easily be a 2 opener for some, I will then rebid a GF unbalanced 2N over 1 of a suit.
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#3 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 03:48

If I start with 1C, and w/o this 2NT unbal GF rebid, Ill have to lie about my majors lengths, by rebidding 2S over 1H, and 2H over 1S (but in that case if partner fits H, shell have 5+ S so we should survive). Only in the rare cases where she bids 1D, will I be confortable with the rebid (easy raise of 1NT to 3).

I can also be left there to play but it doesnt look too likely. I only have 19 HCPs so someone will have enough to move.

Otherwise, from a purely technical POV, Im super max for a non-GF strong 2, and a little light to open a GF (I should have 10 tricks by my own in a minor).

With a passed partner, at MPs, Id go for the strong GF road. After all, 3NT looks like our most likely game.

However, here, partner could have some strength and we could need space to ascertain the best contract. The auction will be less condensed starting low. So Ill risk 1C.
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#4 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 04:29

Open 2NT? At MPs one is willing to risk missing out a making 5 and landing in a non-making 3NT.

The hand is too light for 2 opening unless you have a partnership agreement which allows such hands. As for the rebid, I am with apollo1201 who points out the risks of bidding a major suit next.

2NT does look acceptable at MPs. If it were IMPs, I might open 1 with the hope that it does not get passed out.
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#5 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 04:43

I have all kinds of widgets and gadgets over 1, but in a natural system I think 1X-1Y-3NT should 'always' show a solid 7-card suit with too much outside values for Gambling NT, if you play that. This hand is about a king too strong for that, but it might be the least of all evils.
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#6 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 04:57

Without special agreements: 2, planning to rebid 2N (22-24 BAL) over a 2 response.

If I were forced open 1 (the systemic opening on this hand), I'd rebid

  • 3N over a 1 response
  • 2 over a 1M response (less scary than faking length in the unbid major)
  • 2 (or maybe 3, autosplinter?) over a 1N response

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#7 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 04:57

I use a Multi2 with an XStr+ hand 8.5/9 playing tricks and longer minor to show this.

Simply 2-2-3

Any response apart from 2 would be GF
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 05:18

JillyBean 'MP, both V. How do you plan to bid this hand, what do you open?
++++++++++++++++++++
Playing Acol, I rank
1. 2 = ART 8-9 playing tricks in a suit (BENJAMIN). Intending to rebid 3 (N/F).
2. 1 = NAT, intending to manufacture a 2 reverse or rebid 3N.


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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 05:40

View Postshyams, on 2021-May-15, 04:29, said:

Open 2NT? At MPs one is willing to risk missing out a making 5 and landing in a non-making 3NT.

The hand is too light for 2 opening unless you have a partnership agreement which allows such hands. As for the rebid, I am with apollo1201 who points out the risks of bidding a major suit next.

2NT does look acceptable at MPs. If it were IMPs, I might open 1 with the hope that it does not get passed out.


The problem is you can miss a cold 6 and play in a non making 3N, xxxx, AJ10x, xx, xxx for example

I also think this is worth at least 22 points if you're bidding it as balanced, maybe more.
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#10 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 13:53

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-May-15, 04:43, said:

I have all kinds of widgets and gadgets over 1, but in a natural system I think 1X-1Y-3NT should 'always' show a solid 7-card suit with too much outside values for Gambling NT, if you play that. This hand is about a king too strong for that, but it might be the least of all evils.


That would be my route too. This method works with a weak NT as long as you play 1NT rebid 15-17 and 2NT rebid 18-19.
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#11 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 14:42



I don't have any gadgets to show this hand, I like David's 3nt (by North) showing a gambling 3nt with too many outside values.
I have no other use for 3nt here, that's a great treatment.

This isn't a hand I bid but one a pair who are learning 2/1 asked me to look at.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 14:54

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-15, 14:42, said:




Do you respond a 4 card spade suit ahead of a potentially longer diamond suit ?

I hate 3 btw, KQxx and out is enough for 5 to be cold
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#13 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 15:05

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-May-15, 14:54, said:

Do you respond a 4 card spade suit ahead of a potentially longer diamond suit ?

I hate 3 btw, KQxx and out is enough for 5 to be cold


Partner will not have longer diamonds than spades.
Yes, 3 is an underbid but this is a very awkward hand to bid, especially with no gadgets or experience.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#14 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 15:15

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-May-15, 05:40, said:

The problem is you can miss a cold 6 and play in a non making 3N, xxxx, AJ10x, xx, xxx for example

I also think this is worth at least 22 points if you're bidding it as balanced, maybe more.


I open a lot of weird stuff 2N or 2... 2N, but for once I am with cyberyeti here.
The clubs slam is so tantalising it would be crazy not to investigate in some way.
I would probably go the 2...4 route.
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#15 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 16:08

After 1c-1h, I'd really like to be playing an artificial 2s gadget that includes this sort of hand. Absent that I'd probably try 2s anyway (partner should be barred from raising to 4s imo, if raise 3s 3nt should show something resembling this, problem in diamonds).

After 1c-1s, I actually like 2H!!! I reverse on 3 cd hearts routinely holding strong hands with 3 cd spades and 6c routinely (if partner raises hearts, they have 5+ spades and you can always pull back to spades). If I can reverse on 3, why not on 2? Then if 2nt (potential weakness, 5 cd spades only unless weak with 5s+4+H), I like 3d by opener to be this sort of hand looking for stopper 4th suit.

To me this feels better than 3nt off the first 6 diamond tricks when 4s or 5c or 6c are easy.
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 16:51

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-15, 15:05, said:

Partner will not have longer diamonds than spades.
Yes, 3 is an underbid but this is a very awkward hand to bid, especially with no gadgets or experience.


Can he be 4-4, the point being either he has 5 spades or 3+ clubs if not, so I'd consider a diamond splinter. 4 can play well opposite some pretty horrible hands.

KQJx, xxx, xxx, xxx will play fine in 4or 5, but will play in 3 3N will not be pretty either. Kxxxx Jxx xxx, xx makes 4 and 5 playable.

I 'm in the fortunate position of being able to bid 1-1-2N(GF unbal)-3(semi forced)-3(6+ =3)
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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 18:53

Late to the thread

This hand is far too good for a 3C rebid, which we’d happily bid with, say, Axx Kx xx AKQxxx

So what do we rebid? We need to force partner to bid again. We’re fortunate in that he bid 1S, so we can, with reasonable safety, reverse into 2H. Why is this safe?

Because, if he raises then he has at least 4 hearts and therefore at least 5 spades...so we can always, if need be, correct to spades should he try to insist on hearts.

We don’t have the same security if we reverse into diamonds, which is unfortunate sine the 2D reverse is generally more suspect, in terms of the suit bid, than is 2H.

As for the suggestions to bid 3N, that is, imo, horrific. The prototypical 3N rebid has running clubs, short spades and likely stoppers in the unbid suits. Our club suit qualifies but all else is lacking...too many spades and no semblance of a diamond stopper. 3N might well work, because they need to be able to lead or switch to diamonds successfully and they probably can’t.

But KQxxx xxx Axx xx is a cold slam and partner can’t bid over 3N....you might well hold x Axx Kx AKQJxxx

I’m not saying bidding slam, when it makes, will be easy after the fake reverse, but gambling that we can make 3N when either black suit game or slam may be superior strikes me as poor bridge.

Edit: I see Stephen beat me to the reverse ��
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#18 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 18:54

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-May-15, 16:51, said:

Can he be 4-4, the point being either he has 5 spades or 3+ clubs if not, so I'd consider a diamond splinter. 4 can play well opposite some pretty horrible hands.

KQJx, xxx, xxx, xxx will play fine in 4or 5, but will play in 3 3N will not be pretty either. Kxxxx Jxx xxx, xx makes 4 and 5 playable.

I 'm in the fortunate position of being able to bid 1-1-2N(GF unbal)-3(semi forced)-3(6+ =3)

Sorry, assume no 4 diamonds.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 18:57

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-15, 18:53, said:


As for the suggestions to bid 3N, that is, imo, horrific. The prototypical 3N rebid has running clubs, short spades and likely stoppers in the unbid suits. Our club suit qualifies but all else is lacking...too many spades and no semblance of a diamond stopper. 3N might well work, because they need to be able to lead or switch to diamonds successfully and they probably can’t.

We are not bidding 3nt as any kind of offer to play there, but as in David's suggestion, a gambling 3nt hand with too much in outside values.
It's forward going, slam interest in clubs.

I did consider a 2 "reverse" but "And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly". reversing into a 2 card suit is such a distortion but perhaps the only bid we have.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#20 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 23:34

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-15, 18:53, said:

Edit: I see Stephen beat me to the reverse ��

1st😁😊
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