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The 5 level belongs to...

#1 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 03:27



It was fully agreed that the pass over 4S was not forcing, and that there was no sensible alternative to 2S at the first go (2NT would not show 4+ hearts).

Apart from changing the methods, what would you do with this one?
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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 05:13

south hand to me is stronger than limit raise knowing 9 card fit. seeing both hands tells me not to bid, but vul vs. non vul with partner as opener I would bid one more. non vul bidders are more inclined to sacrifice to 5 than risk against us making 5
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 09:15

South has a minimum game force, so he canít pass 4S.

The way to show that he had a gf hand, unsuitable for driving to five by himself, is to say Ďdoubleí

This is not a penalty double, although it will frequently be passed. Whether it should be passed here is an interesting question, but I think north should bid. Whether 5C or 5H is another interesting decision. On the hand, it makes little difference but if south were, say, 3=5 in hearts and clubs, clubs will be much safer.

I see that 5H has no play, but one has to try to avoid Ďresultingí, plus 4S may well be cold. In any event,in these auctions it is usually correct to bid one more unless one has a reason not to. Here, the 5-5 shape with no side values suggests bidding on.
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 11:33

I like 5/4 here but then after taking another look at the hand, I would not open this in 1st seat.

I open almost every 65 hand I pickup. This hand has good, concentrated values but it's still a 10 count 1525 hand.
Please explain why I should open this?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

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#5 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 12:38

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-21, 11:33, said:

I like 5/4 here but then after taking another look at the hand, I would not open this in 1st seat.

I open almost every 65 hand I pickup. This hand has good, concentrated values but it's still a 10 count 1525 hand.
Please explain why I should open this?


HCP are well placed in the two long suits.
Rule of 20. 10 HCP + length of two longest suits = 20: open.
Rule of 22 vuln agains not. 10 HCP + length of two longest suits + 3 quick tricks = 23: open.

It is a much better hand than the 5-5 10 count my partner opened a week and a half ago, where one of the long suits was ten high.
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 13:36

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-21, 11:33, said:

I like 5/4 here but then after taking another look at the hand, I would not open this in 1st seat.

I open almost every 65 hand I pickup. This hand has good, concentrated values but it's still a 10 count 1525 hand.
Please explain why I should open this?

I donít use the rule of 20. But Iíd happily open this hand

My guidelines for light (hcp) opening bids include:

Location of honours....honours increase in value (on average) when in long suits rather than short) and when combined with other honours or high spot cards

Controls: I like to have 3+ controls (A=2, K=1)

No rebid issues: here, I can happily bid clubs over 1S or 1N and rebid 2H over 2D

LTC: I want, on distributional light hands, a LTC of 7 or less here,

So here, I have all my hcp in my long suits, I have combining honours in my major, and I even have the club 10.

I have my 3 controls and the LTC is 6, which is a good sign should we have a fit.
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 13:48

I have shied away from 'rules' in an effort to develop my bidding judgement and hand evaluation skills.

Yes - Location of honours

Yes - Controls: I like to have 3+ controls (A=2, K=1)

Yes - No rebid issues: here, I can happily bid clubs over 1S or 1N and rebid 2H over 2D

No - LTC: I want, on distributional light hands, a LTC of 7 or less here


I have not adopted LTC at all, where can I best read about LTC?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 14:04

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-21, 13:48, said:

I have shied away from 'rules' in an effort to develop my bidding judgement and hand evaluation skills.

Yes - Location of honours

Yes - Controls: I like to have 3+ controls (A=2, K=1)

Yes - No rebid issues: here, I can happily bid clubs over 1S or 1N and rebid 2H over 2D

No - LTC: I want, on distributional light hands, a LTC of 7 or less here


I have not adopted LTC at all, where can I best read about LTC?

There are books on the subject, including *tweaked* versions, but I donít use LTC during the auction, as true LTC aficionados do. I use it only as a guide on hands that otherwise feel very close to being an opening bid or a pass. So I use a simple version.

In any suit of 3 or more cards, count one loser for each of the Ace, King or Queen missing. The most one can have in any suit is 3...Jxx has the same losing trick count as xxxxxxx

A two card suit..at most one can have a LTC of 2.

What is the LTC of KQ tight, you ask?

Iíd say Ďoneí but Iíd be inclined to be aggressive, rather than conservative, if I otherwise liked my hand and counting this as one would leave me with a LTC of 8.

I canít stress enough that I donít rely on Ďrulesí as such. I weigh various factors....sometimes Iíll pass a hand on which, were an 8 changed to a 9 I might open. QJ97 is significantly stronger than is QJ87, for example

Rules are a very useful idea, but they are not as useful as good judgement. However, I donít know anyone who formed good bidding judgement who didnít, earlier in their career as a player, rely on rules. Teach rules. But donít sell them...whatever they are...as the be all and end all of bidding.

Iíve never seen a single metric that, to me, captured the way I feel about the potential of a hand, and using rigid metrics, of any kind, can function as a straitjacket, limiting the critical ability to re-imagine the strength if any hand as information flows from the actions and inactions of the other players. Metrics are guides.
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#9 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 14:31

Super, a simple version is perfect and my partners will be thrilled that I have a reason to open even more hands.

edited
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#10 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 15:01

Beware that even the true LTC aficionados shy away from basing their opening criteria (almost) entirely on the LTC. The rule is at it strongest when you have found a trump fit that you wish to play, and even then it is no substitute for more nuanced hand evaluation. Personally I'm very happy to link my raises (especially in contested auctions) to the LTC but not the openings.
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