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Bidding question

#1 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 10:14


IMPs. We play Acol with 4-card majors and weak no trump. 1 could be a 15+ hand with 4 hearts and 4 of a minor.
2 is described as spades and a minor.

I wasn't sure how to investigate slam safely here. We have RKCB available, splinters and normal cue bidding, but nothing fancy. Advice welcome.
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#2 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 10:30

Would 2 be a strong (limit or better) heart raise? In my opinion you're way too strong for a 4 splinter, so you might as well start slowly. West may jump, but that's true regardless of what you bid.
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#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 10:51

would 3 be forcing here? those s need a fit for slam to be bid. two problems: the ops will probably bid also, and how can you say to partner if he supports s that a contract is what you want? not an easy hand.

I agree hand is too strong for splinter, but maybe 4is best, and if partner bids 4 follow with 5. i hope partner will work out that I am heading for slam but worthless doubleton. he can then make decision.
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#4 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 11:02

Camouflaging your 11-card fit in a competitive auction is losing bridge. Whatever you bid, it has to promise hearts.
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#5 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 11:25

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-April-07, 10:51, said:

I agree hand is too strong for splinter, but maybe 4is best ...


Is there a limit on strength for a splinter bid? I've never come across that and this article doesn't suggest an upper limit.

https://mrbridge.co....ding/Slam_3.pdf
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 11:43

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-07, 11:25, said:

Is there a limit on strength for a splinter bid? I've never come across that and this article doesn't suggest an upper limit.

https://mrbridge.co....ding/Slam_3.pdf


Many people DO play splinters limited, I don't
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#7 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 12:24

I've come around to welcoming interference in our auctions, it provides us with an entire new level of bidding.
When the opps have shown 's and a minor, 2 here shows a limit+ in and invites partner to cue bid.
For us, 3 would be GF but deny a spade fit , and most likely we will be starting probe for nt.

Splinters I now reserve for weak hands, "I hope you can make this partner".
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 13:01

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-07, 12:24, said:

Splinters I now reserve for weak hands, "I hope you can make this partner".


Why on earth would you do this? Splinters are very useful for slam bidding, when you have *good* hands, but need partner to evaluate wastage or not, and let partner decide whether to keep on going or not, hands that show promise opposite well fitting hands but aren't strong enough to drive slam. If you fail to splinter on these hands, and choose some other raise that only shows support + values, almost always you'll be unable to distinguish between shortness control vs high card control in the suit later. Making it quite difficult for partner to cooperate intelligently.

If you have a weak hand with lots of trump support and shortness, and don't even know whether you even make game or not, just jump raise to 4M. There's no need to splinter with these weak hands that need partner with a super-rare near 2c opener to make slam (with some of those he may figure out when to continue anyway), and it deprives the opps of room to introduce suits or direct a lead with a double.

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#9 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 13:23

View PostStephen Tu, on 2021-April-07, 13:01, said:

Why on earth would you do this? Splinters are very useful for slam bidding, when you have *good* hands, but need partner to evaluate wastage or not, and let partner decide whether to keep on going or not, hands that show promise opposite well fitting hands but aren't strong enough to drive slam. If you fail to splinter on these hands, and choose some other raise that only shows support + values, almost always you'll be unable to distinguish between shortness control vs high card control in the suit later. Making it quite difficult for partner to cooperate intelligently.

If you have a weak hand with lots of trump support and shortness, and don't even know whether you even make game or not, just jump raise to 4M. There's no need to splinter with these weak hands that need partner with a super-rare near 2c opener to make slam (with some of those he may figure out when to continue anyway), and it deprives the opps of room to introduce suits or direct a lead with a double.

Since making the switch to 2/1 we have found so many other methods of showing gf, gf+ values. I consider splinters and all of the bidding space they take up, an inferior method. I'd be happy to hear why I should still play them but we should start another thread.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#10 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 14:33

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-07, 13:23, said:

Since making the switch to 2/1 we have found so many other methods of showing gf, gf+ values. I consider splinters and all of the bidding space they take up, an inferior method. I'd be happy to hear why I should still play them but we should start another thread.


I can't comment on whether or not they are inferior since I can't remember the last time I made a splinter bid. they pretty-much never come up in my experience, so maybe there is a better way to play the double jump in a new suit.
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#11 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 15:32

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-07, 11:25, said:

Is there a limit on strength for a splinter bid? I've never come across that and this article doesn't suggest an upper limit.

https://mrbridge.co....ding/Slam_3.pdf


Most bridge writers definitely do suggest a specific range for splinter bids, although that range may vary slightly among authors.
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#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 15:56

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-07, 13:23, said:

Since making the switch to 2/1 we have found so many other methods of showing gf, gf+ values. I consider splinters and all of the bidding space they take up, an inferior method. I'd be happy to hear why I should still play them but we should start another thread.


I use splinters mainly the way you have now discovered, but I can't see why they are not effective or appropriate here. The range is not written in stone, like any forcing bid.
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 17:49

Maybe splinters should be split-range: opener assumes that you have a minimum GF, but you can also have a very strong hand that has slam interest opposite a minimum. And then maybe this hand is too strong for the minimum. The fact that we play 4-card majors makes this hand a bit stronger since the 5th and the 6th heart are more important if partner might have only 4 cards. They will treat a balanced 15-count as a minimum, but with 6-card support the three extra HCPs are more valuable than an extra trump in opener's hand.

I thought that 4 should be a fitbid here rather than a splinter but maybe that's a regional thing.

I would be nice if we could make some use of the bidding space before LHO eats it up with a 4 bid or w/e, but without discussion I would just bid 2 and then hopefully we can make a minor suit control bid next round, if partner shows a spade control I will then ask for keycards but if they sign off in 4 I will respect that.
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#14 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 19:17

Concerning splinter bids:

The reason for a splinter bid is to find out if our two hands have been dealt in a 30-point deck.
A 30-point deck occurs when all the high card points are held outside of the splinter suit. x opposite xxx would be ideal.

You have one loser, but 14 opposite 14 in all the other suits means you are missing no more than a queen. That may be plenty enough for a slam. And finding and bidding an under-point slam is the only reason to use splinter bids.

IMO, there are two hands to splinter on: one with game forcing strength and a shortness feature that will pass if partner signs off at game, and strong hand with shortness that will cue after the sign-off. The idea behind both, though, is that there is some degree of slam interest.
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#15 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-08, 03:20

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-07, 14:33, said:

I can't comment on whether or not they are inferior since I can't remember the last time I made a splinter bid. they pretty-much never come up in my experience, so maybe there is a better way to play the double jump in a new suit.
Double jumps should be very rare in any sane bidding system. I think splintering is one of the few uses that makes any sense for those bids, and the fact that they are very rare should be considered a feature.
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#16 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-April-08, 08:28

View PostStevenG, on 2021-April-07, 10:14, said:


IMPs. We play Acol with 4-card majors and weak no trump. 1 could be a 15+ hand with 4 hearts and 4 of a minor.
2 is described as spades and a minor.

I wasn't sure how to investigate slam safely here. We have RKCB available, splinters and normal cue bidding, but nothing fancy. Advice welcome.


I would bid 2S - a direct cue bid by responder of opponent's overcalled suit (with the 2H bid, your opponent had shown spades so treat it like a 1S overcall) is almost universally played as support for opener's suit with limit raise or better strength. The other point I would like to make is that ace-asking bids should not be made with an uncontrolled suit - here, the Qx of spades.
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