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how to transfer to diamonds/clubs after 2NT opening from partner finding a minor slam after 2NT opening

#1 User is offline   arunodoysa 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 15:45

Hi All,

How to transfer to minor with a slamming hand after partner opens 2NT? What conventions do you guys suggest?

Note that I play Puppet after 2NT opening



Not that there is a H fit- but I am mostly interested to find the Diamonds slam rather.

In the above hand, I showed a diamond example- also show the bidding for clubs in South's hand- (if clubs and diamonds were reversed for example)

(Also note that I am ok with not playing 4C gerber after 2NT opening from partner- I would rather use 4C for some special purpose)

Thanks a lot in advance!
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#2 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 15:49

As far as I know there are three popular treatments (and of course a whole zoo of less popular ones). You can treat 3 as an ambiguous slam try in a minor, which partner will refuse with a minimum and accept with a slam-suitable hand. Responder clarifies the trump suit on the second round. Alternatively you can play 4-way transfers on the 4-level (either 1-under if you reserve 4 for something special, or 2-under so that partner can give a positive response if you do not). Last but not least you can play everything natural, and 4m forcing.

If you wish to look for a heart fit first it is particularly difficult to introduce a minor suit after, although it would make good sense to play 4m natural and forcing if partner has denied a major suit fit.
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#3 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 16:01

Possible standard 2/1 auction if South doesn't know how to transfer to diamonds:

2N(1)-4(2)
4(3)-4N(4)
5(5)-5N(6)
6(7)-7N(8)
P

(1) 20-21 BAL
(2) transfer to hearts (!)
(3) forced
(4) RKC()
(5) 1 or 4 key cards
(6) king ask
(7) K
(8) contract
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#4 User is offline   arunodoysa 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 16:22

View Postnullve, on 2021-April-06, 16:01, said:

Possible standard 2/1 auction if South doesn't know how to transfer to diamonds:

2N(1)-4(2)
4(3)-4N(4)
5(5)-5N(6)
6(7)-7N(8)
P

(1) 20-21 BAL
(2) transfer to hearts (!)
(3) forced
(4) RKC()
(5) 1 or 4 key cards
(6) king ask
(7) K
(8) contract



I actually want to reach a diamaond contract (or a clubs contract if suits are reversed between diamanonds and clubs). It can either be some kind of transfer or could be through 4d/4C natural- just looking for a good way to do that!
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 16:53

We play 2N-3 as slammy with one or both minors, with a forced 3N, then 4m is single suited slam try with the minor, 4M is the two minor 5-4s or more extreme, 4N is 5-5 minors NF 5N is 5-5 or more pick a minor slam or 6N.
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#6 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 17:33

3 as a 'transfer' to 3NT is definitely the simplest approach to let responder describe their hand (4m = single suited, 4M = both minors with shortness).

You can add other bids on top of that, and it even frees up 2NT - 3NT to show something else - like one of the 5/4 major hands that Puppet can struggle with. But given the number of times partner might forget 3NT isn't natural, it's often simpler to just play 3NT natural too, even though it's completely superfluous.
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 19:14

A very simple but powerful method is to use 3S as a relay to 3N.

Now, as with cyber’s approach, 4m shows a single suited minor with slam interest. Where we differ is on the treatment of 4M. For us it is 5-5 or better, in the minors, bidding our shortness.

With 5-4 minors one can do various things. For example, puppet to 3N and then bid 4N. This isn’t perfect by any means, since opener won’t know much about your specific shape.
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 20:14

IN the Dutch version of puppet (Niemeijer), 4 is a transfer to diamonds. You can also start with 3 and then show the diamonds later if you don't find a hearts fit, but with 7 good diamonds you probably shouldn't worry about hearts.
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#9 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 20:49

There is zero reason to try and sign off in 4m because even x xx xxxxxx xxxx (as long as the highest dia x is above the 8 spot anyway) opposite a 2n bid has plausible chances to make 3n. This means we can safely "transfer to both minor suits without fear of the bidding dying. The easiest method is to use 3s to transfer to clubs and 4c to transfer to diamonds. If opener merely accepts the transfer they have a minimal hand non slammish else they cue bid. The partnership just needs to remember the intent of the transfer so opener can bid the transfer suit at the appropriate level after exploration.
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#10 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-April-06, 20:54

View Posthelene_t, on 2021-April-06, 20:14, said:

IN the Dutch version of puppet (Niemeijer), 4 is a transfer to diamonds. You can also start with 3 and then show the diamonds later if you don't find a hearts fit, but with 7 good diamonds you probably shouldn't worry about hearts.


Is there a version where I don't have to learn how to spell Niemeijer?

FWIW I quite like the GIB system where after 1NT
2NT= weak with 6+
3 = weak with 6+
and 2 = ~8+HCP and both minors - i.e. "Minor Stayman".

After 2NT, GIB uses 3 as minor Stayman as well.

This approach has the advantage of being easy to remember and fitting in well with the "System-on" approach and Lebensohl that GIB uses so that after 1NT-2/, 2NT (requiring 3) can mean:
6+
6+
5+ of the other major
or game-going hand.
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#11 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 01:09

The puppet to 3NT method seems interesting.

I play the minor transfers over 2NT as « facultative BW » i.e. it requires a hand with slam ambitions at least (or a shapely weak hand with a 7 or 8-cd minor that just signs off in 5m whatever the reaction of opener).

Over the transfer, 3S or 4C, opener answers his keys when interested, or bids NT at the minimum level when not interested (3NT or 4NT). With another partner, we just accept the transfer to show we are positive.

55m start with 3S, and if opener rejects, continue with 4D. I heard that weak 55 or 65 should bid 5C, choice of minor, to avoid partner getting too excited if we introduce D after a C transfer, but it is easily forgotten and that hand type doesn’t come up too often!

With 54 hands we just bid 4NT if 22 in the majors, or the M singleton if 31 (and shouldn’t be surprised is sometimes opener jumps to 6 in the other M!). With another partner, we use 4M for a mild slam try in M, so that can’t be used (same if you use transfers at the 4-level).

One has to pick what they remember best, fits their system and nicely meshes with the other conventions they use, and what they feel is more useful, frequent, rewarding in terms of IMPs or MPs over the long run.
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 06:27

My choice:-

2NT
===
3 = major ask (LIPS, but any Puppet variant that handles 54 is ok)
3 = 5+
3 = 5+
3 = 5+ SI (6+ or 5+)
3NT = to play
4 = 6+ SI
4 = 6+
4 = 6+
4 = Baron range ask
4NT = 6+
5 = 6+
--

I used to play 3 as a puppet to 3NT, followed by: 4m = one-suited SI; 4M = 5-5m, void M; 4NT = 5-5m, no void. This is also a perfectly acceptable method.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#13 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 06:30

The other question is how many cards in the minor does 2N-3-anything that doesn't show 5M-4m show
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#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 06:44

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-April-07, 06:30, said:

The other question is how many cards in the minor does 2N-3-anything that doesn't show 5M-4m show

For me the sequences (2NT - 3; 3 - 4 and 2NT - 3; 3 - 4) do not show anything in the minors but are rather further major suit asks. With minor-suit interest you start with 3. After 2NT - 3; 3NT (23xx), 4 is 4+, 4red are puppets and 4 is 4+.
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Happy New Year everyone!
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#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 07:01

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-April-07, 06:44, said:

For me the sequences (2NT - 3; 3 - 4 and 2NT - 3; 3 - 4) do not show anything in the minors but are rather further major suit asks. With minor-suit interest you start with 3. After 2NT - 3; 3NT (23xx), 4 is 4+, 4red are puppets and 4 is 4+.


OK, I don't play puppet so don't have the 3 option, but the same question exists over say 2N-3-3-3-3N-4m
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#16 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 08:57

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-April-07, 07:01, said:

OK, I don't play puppet so don't have the 3 option, but the same question exists over say 2N-3-3-3-3N-4m

In this case Opener either has a 4 card minor or is specifically 3433 so I think 4+ is fairly obvious for 4. 4 is more interesting as here the only hand Responder can have with only 4 is 3343, which would generally prefer to respond 4. Thus it make most sense for 4 to be 5+.

In my system though, the 4M calls are free so I lazily assigned 4m to being 5+ and used 4M as proxy 4 card minor suits. I should perhaps consider changing that...
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#17 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-April-08, 23:44

This may sound eccentric, but I actually quite like playing 4 and 4 as natural slam tries. That way you can also play 3 as minor suit stayman.
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#18 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-April-09, 06:29

I play 3 as 5-card Stayman for minors.
If opener shows a 5-card minor then responder can bid the first step above as kickback or the second step to show the other minor, anything else is natural.
If opener replies 3NT denying a 5-card minor, then 4m is a kickback in the other minor, 4M is both minors with a shortage in the named major, 4N is both minors with majors 2-2, 5 is both minors with no slam interest (pass/correct).
It's not perfect, but it handles a fairly wide range of hands and usually ensures that the 2NT hand becomes declarer.
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#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-09, 06:45

Of course you get way more bids if you play 2N-3 as a puppet to 3N, playing your raise to 3N through that, and 2N-3N as artificial, but we are too worried about forgetting it to do that.
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#20 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-April-09, 09:12

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-April-09, 06:45, said:

Of course you get way more bids if you play 2N-3 as a puppet to 3N, playing your raise to 3N through that, and 2N-3N as artificial, but we are too worried about forgetting it to do that.


Probably more problematic than the forget issue is giving the opps a lead directing double or not inference on a very high frequency action.
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