[McBruce]

tooncestdc, on Jun 29 2005, 06:30 AM, said:

McBruce, I think your idea is a good and simple one.  But I was curious about:

Quote

Online points are virtually worthless to LMs.

What about online points makes you say that? Is it the limitation on overall points or what? As far as I can tell, the "online point" requirement are tougher on NLMs who can't move up unless 2/3 of the points at any level are "colored". As far as being past LM, a point is a point, essentially. There certainly doesn't seem to be much of an advantage for a LM to play at a club game over an ACBL online tournament, unless they are trying for a masterpoint race.

I don't know the current rules for online masterpoints very well, but the ACBL is never going to give out points online in the same proportions that it gives out points at Regionals and NABCs, where winning a mid-level KO (4 wins) will get you several dozen gold points for four sessions of bridge against people who are about at your masterpoint level. How many online tournament wins must one get to score 24 masterpoints?

[Elianna]

McBruce, on Jul 1 2005, 06:25 PM, said:

How many online tournament wins must one get to score 24 masterpoints?

Usually 24 tournament wins.

I think that the reason they may not be useful for LMs is that they don't count for MM races like club points do, which also seem to acrue at the same level (one club win is usually about 1 point).

They are useful in that they count for total points, so you can move up levels (and the more points you have, the more seeding points for various stuff, but as was pointed out, they don't come in great enough quantities to be significant in this regard for many people).

[keylime]

I don't mind online games, but I think awarding 80% club rated for 12 boards, when the average clubs plays MORE than twice that number of boards, is excessive.

Now, if it was 65%, then I might have a rethink.

If online points don't matter, just ask my pard - she made LM on the ability to get online points once her other colors were finished. They are necessary.

[McBruce]

A club game can be worth as much as 1.50, more if it is a club championship or other special game. Most club TDs do not realize that playing a Howell or an arrow-switch movement increases the masterpoints for the winner, while eliminating the biggest problem with Mitchell movements: 3rd place and masterpoints in one direction may be a worse game than 5th in the other direction. If you have eight tables and play a Mitchell each direction winner gets 0.80 (0.10 per pair in each direction), but if you instead play an arrow switch in the last round and make it a one-winner game, there are sixteen pairs in the field and the winner gets 1.50.

[Elianna]

McBruce, on Jul 1 2005, 10:03 PM, said:

A club game can be worth as much as 1.50, more if it is a club championship or other special game. Most club TDs do not realize that playing a Howell or an arrow-switch movement increases the masterpoints for the winner, while eliminating the biggest problem with Mitchell movements: 3rd place and masterpoints in one direction may be a worse game than 5th in the other direction. If you have eight tables and play a Mitchell each direction winner gets 0.80 (0.10 per pair in each direction), but if you instead play an arrow switch in the last round and make it a one-winner game, there are sixteen pairs in the field and the winner gets 1.50.

It also decreases the total points awarded, increases confusion (especially at tables where one pair stays at a table, and has to keep switching directions. they inevitably forget at least once), and increases randomness.

[McBruce]

Elianna, on Jul 1 2005, 09:49 PM, said:

McBruce, on Jul 1 2005, 10:03 PM, said:

A club game can be worth as much as 1.50, more if it is a club championship or other special game.  Most club TDs do not realize that playing a Howell or an arrow-switch movement increases the masterpoints for the winner, while eliminating the biggest problem with Mitchell movements: 3rd place and masterpoints in one direction may be a worse game than 5th in the other direction.  If you have eight tables and play a Mitchell each direction winner gets 0.80 (0.10 per pair in each direction), but if you instead play an arrow switch in the last round and make it a one-winner game, there are sixteen pairs in the field and the winner gets 1.50.

It also decreases the total points awarded, increases confusion (especially at tables where one pair stays at a table, and has to keep switching directions. they inevitably forget at least once), and increases randomness.

Not all TDs are interested only in providing the simplest movement and distributing as many masterpoints as we can. Some of us actually believe that a good game in a more balanced field should get a decent masterpoint award. We accept the occasional forgotten arrow switches and have ACBLScore handle them as it easily does. We minimize confusion by making sure everyone is in the right spot playing the right boards each round, instead of interrupting a telephone call to shout "all change." It's a slow process, but players see the extra effort and come back.

[Elianna]

McBruce, on Jul 2 2005, 11:24 AM, said:

Elianna, on Jul 1 2005, 09:49 PM, said:

McBruce, on Jul 1 2005, 10:03 PM, said:

A club game can be worth as much as 1.50, more if it is a club championship or other special game.  Most club TDs do not realize that playing a Howell or an arrow-switch movement increases the masterpoints for the winner, while eliminating the biggest problem with Mitchell movements: 3rd place and masterpoints in one direction may be a worse game than 5th in the other direction.  If you have eight tables and play a Mitchell each direction winner gets 0.80 (0.10 per pair in each direction), but if you instead play an arrow switch in the last round and make it a one-winner game, there are sixteen pairs in the field and the winner gets 1.50.

It also decreases the total points awarded, increases confusion (especially at tables where one pair stays at a table, and has to keep switching directions. they inevitably forget at least once), and increases randomness.

Not all TDs are interested only in providing the simplest movement and distributing as many masterpoints as we can. Some of us actually believe that a good game in a more balanced field should get a decent masterpoint award. We accept the occasional forgotten arrow switches and have ACBLScore handle them as it easily does. We minimize confusion by making sure everyone is in the right spot playing the right boards each round, instead of interrupting a telephone call to shout "all change." It's a slow process, but players see the extra effort and come back.

Well, one of your points about Howell was that it increased the reward to first place, so I was just pointing out that it doesn't increase total points given.

Also, you missed my point that Howells are much more random that Mitchell movements. In mitchells, you're only ranked against players that play the same boards (in the same direction) as you, and the same group of opponents. While the second is true of many Howell movements, the first is definitely not, and this greatly increases randomness.

[McBruce]

Elianna, on Jul 2 2005, 11:58 AM, said:

Well, one of your points about Howell was that it increased the reward to first place, so I was just pointing out that it doesn't increase total points given.

Also, you missed my point that Howells are much more random that Mitchell movements.  In mitchells, you're only ranked against players that play the same boards (in the same direction) as you, and the same group of opponents.  While the second is true of many Howell movements, the first is definitely not, and this greatly increases randomness.

Not sure what exactly it is that you call randomness here.

If it has something to do with the luck of the draw in determining who you play and who plays who on that board at other tables, I think that that sort of randomness is generally overrated by players, and I have done studies to prove it.

There is no other game or sport that I know of where the field and the prize pool are divided in two so we can have two winners without eventually deciding which is better--except the Mitchell movement club game. (Even in baseball they have inter-league play now. )