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opening bid

#1 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 11:54

A8
AKT
4
KQT8652

MPs, game all, after two passes, what do you open?
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 11:58

1, and it's not even close.
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#3 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 12:03

View PostTylerE, on 2021-March-12, 11:58, said:

1, and it's not even close.


Is that the case even if you are playing something like Benji Acol and can show a strong Acol 2 hand with 2?
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#4 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 12:36

It's not at Acol Two for me, at least in a minor, because if partner passed 1C I wouldn't be asking myself "have we missed game here?" I'd be tempted though if the suits were switched so it had a 7 card major.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 13:07

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-March-12, 12:36, said:

It's not at Acol Two for me, at least in a minor, because if partner passed 1C I wouldn't be asking myself "have we missed game here?" I'd be tempted though if the suits were switched so it had a 7 card major.


No reason to think he isn't holding Qxxxx and J but while game is possible it's not that likely. I agree I would open a strong 2 with a 7 card major, I prefer my minor strong 2s to be a bit better than this as I have to bid them at the 3 level.
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#6 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 15:53

I opened 1. This was the result:



Making +2 for 27%. Partner thought I should have opened 2 and showed 8/9 playing tricks in clubs. I thought partner was worth another bid after my jump rebid. Partner was worried about the spade suit. There is a way of showing in which unbid suits you have or don't have stops but it escapes me currently.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 16:18

View PostAL78, on 2021-March-12, 15:53, said:

I opened 1. This was the result:



Making +2 for 27%. Partner thought I should have opened 2 and showed 8/9 playing tricks in clubs. I thought partner was worth another bid after my jump rebid. Partner was worried about the spade suit. There is a way of showing in which unbid suits you have or don't have stops but it escapes me currently.


Partner seems to lack a pulse, he can't pass 3, deserves you to have Qx, Ax, Axx, KQJxxx, 3-3-3-3N would seem to be a reasonable auction from there.
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#8 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 16:19

View PostAL78, on 2021-March-12, 15:53, said:

I opened 1. This was the result:



Making +2 for 27%. Partner thought I should have opened 2 and showed 8/9 playing tricks in clubs. I thought partner was worth another bid after my jump rebid. Partner was worried about the spade suit. There is a way of showing in which unbid suits you have or don't have stops but it escapes me currently.


Your partner has an easy 3N bid
Alderaan delenda est
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 16:29

Can I play against your partner please?
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#10 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 17:13

The A is huge worth 7.5 pts in my opinion.
Do CPR on west quickly
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#11 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 17:22

Yeah, pass shows the same hand without the A. 2 opener is for the hands that are afraid of missing game opposite the major suit queens, not opposite an auto-push of a strong NT to game.
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#12 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-12, 17:36

Just get a new partner dude. Same thing every thread. This one is beyond hopeless.
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#13 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-March-13, 03:16

Seems your partner is prone to see the mote in your eye, forgetting the beam in their own.

You have an uneasy choice of opening and rebid. The hand maybe lacks the CJ or SQ to be worth considering as a strong 2 even in its « lightest » version (the one I play, around 9 tricks, 7-cd usually, 15-18 HCP).

So 1C be it. And 3C seems enough too, absent gadgets. Although we would bid the same with a C less and a D more.

Over that, partner is worth a bid at every form of scoring. And it’s not even close. A pragmatic 3NT or a « fishing » 3D (you’d bit 3H and 3NT over the subsequent 3S, but it is a bit slippery...) will land you to the missed game.
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#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 08:17

I feel like this thread somewhat missed the mark on this hand. Unlike others, I do not have much of an issue with a Benji 2 opening here. It is not essential but it avoids a completely foreseeable issue later by getting the hand off your chest immediately.

After 1, East has a serious problem, sometimes described as the Bridge World Death Hand. A 3 rebid on this hand is a genuine underbid but alternatives are in short supply. It is not so uncommon to use a 2 reverse on this sequence artificially to cover this and that would be the best solution. I might even consider bidding a "natural" 2 here. Another possibility is a 3NT rebid, which can also be used for this purpose. In any case, it is the lack of discussion of this call that initiated this response despite it being a little late.

Finally, the general criticism of West's 3rd call here is fully justified. Assuming Benji was agreed, they are probably used to the style where a 3 jump can somewhat weaker than standard. This is generally a crux for poor bidding knowledge but is unfortunately quite widespread at club level in the UK.

But step back a moment here - give West 632 QJ876 862 A7 and would you still be so critical of their pass? And this hand is, in context, stronger. So the issue here goes deeper than just criticising West. It is a structural (system) problem that will keep happening until addressed. Which takes us back to the 2 opening. While not the best solution, it is the simplest. For club players, sometimes simple is better than optimal.
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#15 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 21:30

If you decided to play Benji it is presumably because you can bid hands like this one more accurately using Benji than using a 1 opening. So you should probably use it.

So the auction with this hand might go
-- 2
2 - 3
3 - 3NT

But I wouldn't be confident that it would go like this. I would be concerned that 3 is just relay that denies a 5-card major (or something like that), and that opener therefore can't safely bid 3NT.

With those partners with whom I played Benji I never had any discussions about the follow ups. Therefore I would never open 2 - it is never necessary to open 2 since you can always just bid the way you would have bid without Benji in your toolbox. But the result is that since 2 never comes up anyway it isn't worth it to discuss the follow ups, so it becomes a circular argument.

So basically I think there are two reasonable approaches:
1) Agree to play Benji, and have detailed discussions about the follow ups. You might, for example, agree that the 3 rebid denies a 4-card major so the auction could start
2-2
3-3
3 where 3 is a relay and 3 shows a heart stopper.

2) Don't play Benji. This particular hand is not difficult, you will always end up in 3NT, but as others have shown there will be other hands with which you will stop in 3 while having good play for 4. So while this is simpler (and also allows you to open 2 with the GF hands which preserves more space than 2, and frees the 2 opening for other purposes) it does, of course, come with a price.
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#16 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 22:40

View PostAL78, on 2021-March-12, 15:53, said:

I opened 1. This was the result:



Making +2 for 27%. Partner thought I should have opened 2 and showed 8/9 playing tricks in clubs. I thought partner was worth another bid after my jump rebid. Partner was worried about the spade suit. There is a way of showing in which unbid suits you have or don't have stops but it escapes me currently.


Bidding cold games is definitely overrated. In major league baseball, batting .300 is all star level hitting.
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#17 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2021-April-08, 02:20

I can see the desire to open 2C even playing 2/1. You basically have a 9 trick hand in C many days. However there are couple of major flaws, no A of C and 2 short suits. Facing only 1c in partners hand increases the flaw. I think after partner responds you are too good for 3C as its an underbid. I am not pleased with my options now because anything I choose to do is flawed, but my choice would be to bid 2S and hope I survive, at least partner can not pass and I will end up in game for sure. If partner had responded 1S it would be easy to reverse in H and the auction would not get out of control.

Your partner should have continued bidding over 3C with 3N and would surely bid NT after a 2S bid. Even if he raises S you can land in 5C eventually.
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#18 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-08, 02:55

View Postmcphee, on 2021-April-08, 02:20, said:

I can see the desire to open 2C even playing 2/1. You basically have a 9 trick hand in C many days. However there are couple of major flaws, no A of C and 2 short suits. Facing only 1c in partners hand increases the flaw. I think after partner responds you are too good for 3C as its an underbid. I am not pleased with my options now because anything I choose to do is flawed, but my choice would be to bid 2S and hope I survive, at least partner can not pass and I will end up in game for sure. If partner had responded 1S it would be easy to reverse in H and the auction would not get out of control.

Your partner should have continued bidding over 3C with 3N and would surely bid NT after a 2S bid. Even if he raises S you can land in 5C eventually.


I don't like the idea of faking a major suit. Too much risk of being put into a poor game on a poor fit.
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#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-08, 03:14

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-April-07, 08:17, said:

I feel like this thread somewhat missed the mark on this hand. Unlike others, I do not have much of an issue with a Benji 2 opening here. It is not essential but it avoids a completely foreseeable issue later by getting the hand off your chest immediately.

After 1, East has a serious problem, sometimes described as the Bridge World Death Hand. A 3 rebid on this hand is a genuine underbid but alternatives are in short supply. It is not so uncommon to use a 2 reverse on this sequence artificially to cover this and that would be the best solution. I might even consider bidding a "natural" 2 here. Another possibility is a 3NT rebid, which can also be used for this purpose. In any case, it is the lack of discussion of this call that initiated this response despite it being a little late.

Finally, the general criticism of West's 3rd call here is fully justified. Assuming Benji was agreed, they are probably used to the style where a 3 jump can somewhat weaker than standard. This is generally a crux for poor bidding knowledge but is unfortunately quite widespread at club level in the UK.

But step back a moment here - give West 632 QJ876 862 A7 and would you still be so critical of their pass? And this hand is, in context, stronger. So the issue here goes deeper than just criticising West. It is a structural (system) problem that will keep happening until addressed. Which takes us back to the 2 opening. While not the best solution, it is the simplest. For club players, sometimes simple is better than optimal.


This is why Gnasher advocated using 2 as an artificial GF and we use 2N for the same purpose.

Our auction on the last hand you give would be 1-1-2N(GF unbal)-3(semi forced unless very unbalanced)-3(exactly 3 hearts and 6+)-4(not worth a cue)- and now it depends how ambitious opener gets, he can see Qxxxx and A is enough for a slam, but A might not be, so he could cue but might not.
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#20 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-April-08, 12:18

Unusually I differ with Zelandakh who I consider a thoughtful contributor when he says "Assuming Benji was agreed, they are probably used to the style where a 3 jump can somewhat weaker than standard. This is generally a crux for poor bidding knowledge but is unfortunately quite widespread at club level in the UK"

On this hand, you can tear up East's King of Hearts, leaving a (beautifully formed) 13 count, and West still has enough for the partnership to make 3NT
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