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#1 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 16:59

IMPS Bermuda Bowl, not your local bridge club.

Playing 12-14nt, 1nt shows 15-17 and does not deny a 4 card major.
1 2 is a limit raise in clubs.


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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 17:59

I would make whatever GF bid I have available.

Since you're giving a fantasy problem with no meaningful systemic detail it's impossible to be more specific.
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 18:00

Do you have an agreement on 3 ? Do you have an agreement on 2 ? Do you play checkback ?
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#4 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 18:18

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-March-04, 18:00, said:

Do you have an agreement on 3 ? Do you have an agreement on 2 ? Do you play checkback ?

2 is gf x45x type Yes, you can play check back or xyz.
If you were playing a checkback, 3 would be a little strange, preemptive and suggesting partner should pass?
With no checkback 3 would be invitational?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#5 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 18:31

Something has to be some sort of art (or natural single suited) GF or your system is broken. IMO some sort of 2w checkback is best over weak NT - in which case, 2 would setup a GF, over which opener will rebid naturally (mostly bid a 4 card major with one, or raise with 3), and then responder's 3 shows a GF single suiter.
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#6 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 19:00

Let's play 2 artificial, gf


Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#7 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 19:41

What I'd like to do is bid 3S as a splinter with diamonds. Can I do something like that without overstating my diamond quality?

(Edit: 3S over 1NT, not over 2H)

This post has been edited by sfi: 2021-March-05, 03:08

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#8 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 20:41

Playing what I usually play, I don't have a bid other than 3 here (meaning after 1C-1D-1N-2D-2H).

Unfortunately, that pretty much tends to endplay partner into bidding 3N, and, worse, if we belong in 4, partner will twitch before bidding 3N and I'll have to pass if I'm an ethical player, though the twitch might be slight enough that I could get away with 4.

We probably should have an agreement that, over 3, one of 3 and 3 shows the club stopper and the other shows the spade stopper, both suggesting 4 in a Moysian, but we don't, and we wouldn't remember it anyway.
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#9 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 21:01



Would partner need to raise diamonds here to set trump? Could you / do you use a new suit as implicit support for 's, a forward going cue? 3 for example.
A probe for nt makes no sense as North has already bid 1nt.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#10 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 21:03

Assuming that, as most good pairs play these days, 2D over 1N is an artificial gf, then thatís obvious enough. Over 2H, we bid 3D. Again, obvious enough.

Now we get into murky territory.

What would openerís 3S suggest/show?

Itís not 4 spades. Weíve denied 4S ourselves.

Itís not 3N: with 4423 heís bidding 3N almost all the time.

Itís either doubt about notrump, due to concern over spades, or itís forward going in diamonds. Of course, if he has weak spades, his hand will usually play well in diamonds, although Jxx KJxx Ax AKxx is entirely possible


One thing for sure: weíre not playing 3N if he bids 3S

But what if he does bid 3N? Then I happily pass.

He knows Iím not sure where to play this. If I felt that 3N was the spot, Iíd have bid it. So either Iím too strong for 3N or I have a concern about a suit. It wonít be about hearts after 2H and as a rule we donít worry about openerís suit. So 3N says he has spade values, and spade values are good for 3N but usually not good for 5D when m6 suit is marginal and we may have only 26 hcp.

Iím not worrying about finding a 4-3 heart fit. We canít cater to everything and here weíre looking for notrump or diamonds and, if diamonds, possibly, but unlikely, slam

Picture Jxx Kxxx AQx AKx
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#11 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 03:00



Sitting North, would you have ended the auction in 3nt / 3?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 03:06

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-04, 18:18, said:

2 is gf x45x type Yes, you can play check back or xyz.
If you were playing a checkback, 3 would be a little strange, preemptive and suggesting partner should pass?
With no checkback 3 would be invitational?


If you're playing checkback 2 doesn't need to be 4 hearts because that can go through the checkback, so I'd like it to be GF with diamonds with values but not length in hearts.

Very much depends on your version of checkback, we play 2CB here, 2 to play, so CB/3 is GF, direct 3 is inv.

If you're not playing WJS, I don't like losing 2 to play over 1-1-1N for CB.

To MikeH, what is 1-1-1N-2-2-3-3 ? I would have thought one of this and 3 shows concern about clubs, the other about spades unless you use it as artificial agreement for diamonds.
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#13 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 03:32

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-March-05, 03:06, said:

If you're playing checkback 2 doesn't need to be 4 hearts because that can go through the checkback, so I'd like it to be GF with diamonds with values but not length in hearts.

Very much depends on your version of checkback, we play 2CB here, 2 to play, so CB/3 is GF, direct 3 is inv.

If you're not playing WJS, I don't like losing 2 to play over 1-1-1N for CB.

To MikeH, what is 1-1-1N-2-2-3-3 ? I would have thought one of this and 3 shows concern about clubs, the other about spades unless you use it as artificial agreement for diamonds.


My comment regarding 2 natural, game forcing was on the assumption that you weren't playing any checkback.
We play xyz so we don't lose the ability to play in 2 - 1 1 1z 2 forces 2
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#14 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 04:16

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-05, 03:32, said:

My comment regarding 2 natural, game forcing was on the assumption that you weren't playing any checkback.
We play xyz so we don't lose the ability to play in 2 - 1 1 1z 2 forces 2


Yes, but I think it's a valid question what 2 is if you DO play checkback. I don't play XYZ, we play a wide range 1N rebid and Crowhurst, so don't know the sequences.
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#15 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 13:01

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-March-05, 04:16, said:

Yes, but I think it's a valid question what 2 is if you DO play checkback. I don't play XYZ, we play a wide range 1N rebid and Crowhurst, so don't know the sequences.

To me 2 is as described above - gf with 4 hearts and 5 diamonds. 2 is gf without a 4 card major.

This comes from the whole idea behind a Walsh 1 - opener is able to bid 1nt with a 4 card major because they know if you have a major fit, responder will still be able to show his major. By bidding 2 you show 9 of your cards - if you bid 2, you've shown 4 and not exactly saved much room to catch up..
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#16 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 13:13

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-05, 03:00, said:



Sitting North, would you have ended the auction in 3nt / 3?


I cannot be objective on where my regular partners and I would have ended up (were we to be playing a weak 1N....with one partner we play 10-12 1/2 nv, but with both we play 14-16 red)

However, I think that North has an interesting call over 2D. Yes, I see the heart suit, but partner doesn't have hearts.

Even playing xyz, the sequence 1C 1D 1N 2H is a reverse and forcing to game. I think it silly to play it otherwise....if one wants to suggest playing in 2H, one's heart suit justifies bidding 1H. When does one describe and when does one ask? That's an important question. I think that one asks when one has a one-suited hand or one's own suit and a big fit for partner's opening bid. Say x AQx KQxxx QJxx. Now 2D followed by 3C, while with 4M 5D, one tells, and opener can assess degree of fit and working cards.

Now, I know that up the line bidders may argue with this, but even for them, a reverse is a reverse, and if one plays up the line, then opener would usually rebid 1H, not 1N.

And the hearts are really non-existent. It is trivial to construct a hand on which 3N is cold and the 4-4 heart fit is doomed.

So I think opener can reasonably rebid 2N over 2D...I wouldn't say that if the hearts were stronger and/or we lacked a spade stopper: Jxx Kxxx AQx AKx is 2H.

I do think that north has a 3S bid over 3D, but just barely. The LTC is huge in the majors. I just think that holding 7 controls and the third diamond (it being the Jack is not that significant on most hands, since partner will frequently hold KQxxxx on this auction) makes signing off too difficult if responder had a slightly better hand where slam is 'good'. Say x AQ9 KQxxxx Qxx (if diamonds are 2-2, strip the blacks and lead a heart to the AQ9, covering whatever east plays, as an extra to the winning heart hook situation)

Over 3S, south can punt with 4D, and then over whichever black cue north makes, bid 5D (since north will have denied the heart K), which is a decent contract: one would be unlucky to go down while 6D requires quite a bit of luck to make.

Note that 3N may fail on a spade lead, while 5D has better chances.
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#17 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 13:17

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-March-05, 03:06, said:

If you're playing checkback 2 doesn't need to be 4 hearts because that can go through the checkback, so I'd like it to be GF with diamonds with values but not length in hearts.

Very much depends on your version of checkback, we play 2CB here, 2 to play, so CB/3 is GF, direct 3 is inv.

If you're not playing WJS, I don't like losing 2 to play over 1-1-1N for CB.

To MikeH, what is 1-1-1N-2-2-3-3 ? I would have thought one of this and 3 shows concern about clubs, the other about spades unless you use it as artificial agreement for diamonds.

your suggestion is reasonable and quite playable. The downside is that it is a rare sequence and an easy forget outside of established partnerships. I would use 3H as doubt about spades. Then 3S by responder shows a hand too strong for 3N while showing a control, and 3N would be suggesting we play there.
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#18 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 14:51

Mike, thank you for your replies, I am working to understand all of this.

View Postmikeh, on 2021-March-05, 13:13, said:

Now, I know that up the line bidders may argue with this, but even for them, a reverse is a reverse, and if one plays up the line, then opener would usually rebid 1H, not 1N.

Playing 12-14nt, after any 1m:1x auction I am always bidding 1nt to show the balanced 15-17 hand. If partner wants to bid on, we can always find a major fit using checkback, if they can't bid on, 1nt is a good spot.
Is there a better approach?

View Postmikeh, on 2021-March-05, 13:13, said:

And the hearts are really non-existent. It is trivial to construct a hand on which 3N is cold and the 4-4 heart fit is doomed.

So I think opener can reasonably rebid 2N over 2D...I wouldn't say that if the hearts were stronger and/or we lacked a spade stopper: Jxx Kxxx AQx AKx is 2H.

While I agree that the hearts are not worth mentioning,2 clearly describes the shape of my hand.
I deny 4 (likely?), 4 and 5. Partner can picture my hand as a 15-17 3433 (4423)
When is the bid suggesting a place to play or simply bidding my shape? I will always correct a raise to nt or .
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SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 15:55

View Postmikeh, on 2021-March-05, 13:17, said:

your suggestion is reasonable and quite playable. The downside is that it is a rare sequence and an easy forget outside of established partnerships. I would use 3H as doubt about spades. Then 3S by responder shows a hand too strong for 3N while showing a control, and 3N would be suggesting we play there.


In the days of playing online where you can read the system file while playing I'm much happier playing these rare sequences than I am face to face.
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#20 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-05, 17:09

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-March-05, 15:55, said:

In the days of playing online where you can read the system file while playing I'm much happier playing these rare sequences than I am face to face.

:blink: :blink: :blink:
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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