BBO Discussion Forums: Quantitative 4NT - Manx hands 2 - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1

Quantitative 4NT - Manx hands 2 example hand from Douglas Bridge Club

#1 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 416
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2021-February-21, 10:53

It can be challenging when learning bridge to work out when 4NT is Blackwood and when it is a natural ("quantitative") bid. This hand from Douglas Bridge Club (17 February board 10) provides an example of a situation where a bid of 4NT is NOT Blackwood. In fact at three of the four tables the contract was 4NT (the fourth was in 3NT).

3NT denied a 4 card major


2NT was 20-22 points, the "standard" range in the UK. After East has denied a 4 card major, East-West have no agreed suit, so West can make a natural try for a slam in no-trumps by bidding 4NT. This shows about 11 points (in a flat hand like this) and asks East to bid the slam with a maximum. 21 points might be enough for slam if East had a 5 card suit, but with a completely flat hand, East passed. 11 tricks are the limit in No-trumps unless South leads the Ace of Diamonds.

Six Clubs can be made, but bidding it is another matter on standard methods. With a slightly better hand, East might try bidding Five no-trumps "pick a slam" but in West's shoes I would not then bid a 4 card suit headed by the 10 at slam level.
0

#2 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,715
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2021-February-21, 14:40

While one can construct hands on which it makes sense for the notrump bidder to later ask for keycards, such are rare. It is a useful rule, for advancing players, to have the rule that a player who opens 1N, 2N or 2C then 2N, can never ask for keycards, so that if he or she bids 4N at some point, it is natural.

In any event, even if you feel this rule is too restrictive, another and, imo, always applicable rule is that when one player has bid 3N to play, then a later 4N by that player is always natural (unless partner has made a keycard asking bid to which 4N is an answer)

Also, any time the previous bid was a natural 1N, 2N or 3N then 4 Nnis always quantitative
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
1

#3 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 416
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2021-February-22, 00:59

View Postmikeh, on 2021-February-21, 14:40, said:

While one can construct hands on which it makes sense for the notrump bidder to later ask for keycards, such are rare. It is a useful rule, for advancing players, to have the rule that a player who opens 1N, 2N or 2C then 2N, can never ask for keycards, so that if he or she bids 4N at some point, it is natural.

In any event, even if you feel this rule is too restrictive, another and, imo, always applicable rule is that when one player has bid 3N to play, then a later 4N by that player is always natural (unless partner has made a keycard asking bid to which 4N is an answer)

Also, any time the previous bid was a natural 1N, 2N or 3N then 4 Nnis always quantitative


Thanks mikeh for raising the principles involved. I might add some notes on that.
0

#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,517
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-February-22, 05:33

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-February-22, 00:59, said:

Thanks mikeh for raising the principles involved. I might add some notes on that.


Mike's principles are very sound, also consider how you respond to a quantitative 4N.

Some people give a blackwood response if accepting, some will bid an unbid 5 card suit in case the suit slam is better, also discuss what 5N means if it exists at all.

I don't think any of my partnerships can find 6, you probably need to be playing some sort of relay as 6 is not brilliant (although is still decent) without J even if it's replaced by J. Finding out W is 4(32)4 with AK and K should be possible in any relay system but finding J is more complex.

6N is 50:50, A onside, 6 is much better, clubs not 5-0 hearts not 7-1, no second round diamond ruff.

Once you get to 2N type point ranges, you need to realise that pretty much half of 20-22s are 20. I'd consider giving partner an encouraging noise with many 21s particularly if I can do so without committing to slam.
0

#5 User is offline   thepossum 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,277
  • Joined: 2018-July-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2021-February-22, 16:23

Playing with GiB on occasions I've found it important to actually check which suit GiB thought had been agreed (in case of Blackwood) and found it difficult to maneuver to a quantitative 4NT on occasions with many 4NT being taken as Blackwood in situations when clearly no suit had been agreed
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1


Fast Reply

  

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users