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A Norwegian wood

#1 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-February-20, 09:09

Idea:

A kind of (parity) key card investigation tool where

* the trump suit is not yet agreed on;
* Teller is the one to choose the trump suit.

Typical situation where it could be used in my system:

* There are two potential trump suits from Asker's perspective
* 4 asks
* The highest (normal) response to 4 is 5 of the highest ranking potential trump suit

So for example if one of the suits are the roundeds, then the (normal) responses are 4, 4N, 5, 5 and 5 and the larger structure could be something like

4 = even KC
...4N = TQ ask
......5 = no TQ()
......5 = TQ()
......5 = no TQ()
......5+ = TQ()
4N = odd KC(), no TQ()
5 = odd KC(), TQ()
5 = odd KC(), no TQ()
5 = odd KC(), TQ()
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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-February-21, 04:41

I'll try to illustrate with the hands from the how do you bid this? thread:



With the new -wood and a bit of wishful thinking, maybe:

nullve(S)-nullve(N)

1(1)-2(2)
2(3)-2N(4)
3(5)-3(6)
3(7)-3N(8)
4(9)-4(10)
4(11)-4N(12)
5(13)-5(14)
5(15)-5N(16)
7N(17)-P

(1) "10+, NAT(ish) unBAL" or "20-22 BAL"
(2) "unBAL GF with primary C"
(3) relay
(4) "16-18, either (3)4+H5+C or 1-suited"
(5) relay
(6) 1-suited
(7) relay with slam interest and willingness to bypass 3N
(8) S length "special", not 3226
(9) relay
(10) "15-17", 7C3S(21), simultaneously acting as the-wood
(11) even # of key cards (but only Opener knows what the trump suit is at this point)
(12) trump Q ask (not knowing what the trump suit is)
(13) C is trumps, no trump Q
(14) grand slam interest (ergo remaining key cards + trump Q), not 3217 (ergo 3127)
(15) K ask
(16) K, no J
(17) contract
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#3 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-February-22, 06:03

About how I got the idea and what kind of problem it is supposed to solve:

In my relay system, if x and y are given suits and hi is the highest remaining suit, then 6x4y(21) shape is shown using the structure

3 = 5x4y22, 6x4y(21), 8+x3(!)y or 6+x4+y0hi
...3 = relay, either guaranteeing slam interest and either 2+ x or 4+ y, or just looking for a 6-2 or better major suit (x=M) fit
...(...)
......(...)
......4 = 6x4y(21)
......(...).

(Teller's strength is already known to within 3 hcp, so this isn't quite as some relayers might think.)

For all possible values of {x,y} except one, Asker can then launch PKC(T) (= Parity Key Card Blackwood with T as trumps) at a level no higher than 4T+2. But when {x,y}={C,H}, 4 must be to play and 4 is already 4+3, which is one step above the safety level for PKC().

So I started wondering if the needed space could be freed by letting Asker show instead of ask, as in

4*-?:

* 6x4y(21), x and y rounded suits

4 = to play
4+: same as 4+ in response to the -wood (4) described in the OP and used in example above

Here's an example of how this could work using the EW hands from

https://www.bridgeba...ost__p__1014475



East West

1(1)-2(2)
2(3)-2(4)
3(5)-3(6)
4(7)-4(8)
4N(9)-5(10)
5(11)-7(12)
P

(1) "10-21, 5+ H, unBAL"
(2) 3-way
(3) usually just a good MIN ("13-15"), so GF even opposite a LR (For a fuller description, see https://www.bridgeba...ost__p__1001309)
(4) GF relay
(5) "13-15", either 2542, 6H4C(21), 8+H3C or 6+H4+C0S
(6) relay
(7) 12-14, 6H4C(21)
(8) even # of key cards
(9) trump Q ask
(10) trump Q, C is trumps
(11) confirming all key cards, 2614, no K
(12) contract
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-February-23, 14:38

The first hand should be easy for any relay system. It is particularly good for parity-cue style methods but even for basic ones you can get the job done with something like:-

1 = 10-17, 4+, unbal (if South decides to treat the hand as a simple 17)
... - 1 = INV+ relay
2 = extras, one-suited, GF
... - 2 = relay
2 = 3
... - 2NT = relay
3 = 3
... - 3 = relay
3 = 3361
... - 3 = relay
4 = 5 controls
... - 4 = relay
4NT = control, no control
... - 5 = relay
5 = control, no A
... - 5 = relay
6 = 2 or 3 of top 3, !SQ, 1 of top 3
... - 6 = relay
7 = AKQ, J, J, no J

or

1 = 10-17, 4+, unbal (if South decides to treat the hand as a simple 17)
... - 1 = INV+ relay
2 = extras, one-suited, GF
... - 2 = relay
2 = 3
... - 2NT = relay
3 = 3
... - 3 = relay
3 = 3361
... - 4 = puppet to 4
4
... - 4 = RKCB()
4NT = 0 or 3 kc
... - 5 = Q?
5NT = Q and no side king
... - 7NT (could ask about Q but why bother?)

or

1 = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any (if South decides to upgrade the hand)
... - 1 = GF with no 4+ major
1NT = 18+ (or an Acol 2)
... - 2 = one-suited with
2 = relay
... - 2NT = 3, <3
3 = relay
... - 3 = 3127
3NT = to play
... - 4NT = extras, 6 controls
5NT = Q ask
... - 6 = Q, no Q
7NT

And if you check out IMPrecision auctions for this hand, you will see just how easily a well-designed parity cue relay system handles hands like this one.

Incidentally, I think you meant 5 rather than 5 for your auction on this hand as everyone seems to be assuming are trumps despite the description for #13.

I think Hand #2 just illustrates the inefficiency of the relays you want to play. Using 1 as INV+ or 1NT/2 as a pure GF relay would not run into such issues, for example:-

1 = 5+[hearts, unbal
... - 1 = INV+ relay
1NT = min, <4
... - 2 = GF relay
2 = 4+
... - 2 = relay
3 = 2614
... - 3 = relay
4 = 5 controls
... - 4 = relay
5 = controls in , and , no A
... - 7/7NT = pick your poison (it is actually possible also to find out about J below 6NT if that colours your decision)

7NT seems the better grand at MP; am not sure about IMPs but probably even there as if do not split we lack entries to ruff all the . If we are worried about the split, it seems better to take an Ave+ board in a small slam rather than going for the in-between 7 option...but perhaps I am just looking at it wrong.

More generally, my view is that the answer here is really to arrange your relays such that you do not arrive at 4 without having shown some basic distribution beforehand, so that you do not need a crutch to handle hands that just want to sign off in 4M. That is not to say that the idea might not have legs, just that I think you should optimise the underlying system before you decide on the best way of introducing it.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#5 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-February-23, 21:18

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-February-23, 14:38, said:

The first hand should be easy for any relay system.

And not too hard for even a basic 2/1 system. (1-2; 2-4 etc.)

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-February-23, 14:38, said:

Incidentally, I think you meant 5 rather than 5 for your auction on this hand as everyone seems to be assuming are trumps despite the description for #13.

No, I meant 5. South knows about the 7-1 club fit but not yet about the 6-2 diamond fit.

Of course, South would often prefer a 6-2 diamond fit to a 7-1 club fit, so he could (should), knowing what I know about my system, have bid 3 (6+ D, slam interest) over

1-2
2-2N

or 3 (5+ D, slam interest) over

1-2
2-2N
3-3.

But then I couldn't have used these hands as an example. :( Hence the "wishful thinking".

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-February-23, 14:38, said:

I think Hand #2 just illustrates the inefficiency of the relays you want to play. Using 1 as INV+ or 1NT/2 as a pure GF relay would not run into such issues

Change the EW hands to


and my auction would start

East West
1(1)-1N(2)
2(3)-2(4)
3(5)-3(5)
4(5),

(1) "10-21, 5+ H, unBAL"
(2) "5-12, NAT, NF"
(3) "13-15", either 5H or 5S6+H OR "16-18", any
(4) 8+, relay
(5) same as in the auction starting 1-2; 2-2; 3-3; 4, but with "16-18" (15-17 hcp if 2614) instead of "13-15"

but Welland-Auken, for example, who use 1N as a GF relay in response their relatively standard 1 opening, would probably have to start something like

1-2*
2N**.

* 9-13, 2 H
** GF, 4+ C (iirc)

Change the EW hands again to


and my auction would start

East West
1(1)-1N(2)
3(3)-3(3)
4(3),

(1) "10-21, 5+ H, unBAL"
(2) "5-12, NAT, NF"
(3) same as in the auction starting 1-2; 2-2; 3-3; 4, but with "19-21" (18-20 hcp if 2614) instead of "13-15"

although West doesn't have values even for an INV+ 1 relay. (But I know East is too strong for a 1 opening in your system.)

I like the fact that even though my relay structure is not as efficient in the slam zone as many of the structures you see in this forum (for example, yours), it can be used "everywhere".

Quote

... - 7/7NT = pick your poison (it is actually possible also to find out about J below 6NT if that colours your decision)

Instead of

(...)
5-7
P

I could have bid

(...)
5-6*
7**-7N
P

* J ask
** J, no J

[not finished]
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