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how do you bid this?

#1 User is offline   portia2 

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Posted 2021-February-17, 06:49

7NT was made on all tables but how (playing 2/1) do you bid it? Thanks


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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-February-17, 07:22

You have a big hand with a self supporting suit, start with 3 if playing SJS and there will be no problem.

I can't really comment on the 2/1 auction as I don't play it
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#3 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-February-17, 11:16

I reckon we may bid something like 1-2; 2-3; 3*-3*; 4NT (quantitative)-5 (extras); 5 (extras) - 5 (first round control); 5NT (got anything more to say?) - 6 (yes my clubs are really good); 7NT
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-February-17, 11:30

One variant of 2/1 has the responding sequence of 2C then 3C as non-forcing. Be careful to know if that is how partner plays it. I think that style is now very much a minority view, but it was once very popular.

Also, the sequence 1D 2C 2D is a bidding theory quagmire, in terms of openerís possible hand types.

However, with that said, responder has 9 tricks in his own hand and a stiff heart.

So I would suggest

1D. 2C
2D. 4C. This rare second round jump rebid shows slam interest and a long solid suit. It sets trump (always convertible to NT)

South has huge undisclosed assets. Responder was looking for slam and southís hand is several tricks better than it might be.

There are several plausible routes to 7N now.

Iíd probably cue 4D over which north asks for aces (while Iíve not seen this mentioned anywhere, after someone shows a solid suit, one doesnít need keycard anymore)

Once north asks for aces, and then for kings, south can jump to 7C which north can correct to 7N. With north asking, the issue about plain Blackwood or keycard is moot.
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#5 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-February-17, 15:14

View Postportia2, on 2021-February-17, 06:49, said:

7NT was made on all tables

Perhaps you should check the traveller again. 7NT was bid and made on precisely one table after an unconvincing auction (1 - 2; 3NT - 4; 5NT - 7NT). Your opponents, who managed 83.33% for 6NT+1, appear to have been playing Acol. As Mike points out, the version of 2/1 being used has a distinct impact on the likely auction. Even his suggestion has its issues - there are plenty of club players who play that "4 is always Gerber" or that a raise/jump to 4m is always RKCB. Not to mention Kickback (where 4 is RKCB).

In any case, as soon as either player shows extras, their partner's hand is huge so investigating towards the grand should be fairly easy. That 7 from 13 pairs did not even manage to reach a small slam (and one of the pairs that did only took 12 tricks!) is remarkable but does illustrate the standard to be expected in a typical social game.
(-: Zel :-)

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#6 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-February-18, 01:15

View Postmikeh, on 2021-February-17, 11:30, said:

while I’ve not seen this mentioned anywhere, after someone shows a solid suit, one doesn’t need keycard anymore

Why? / How do you define 'solid suit'?
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-February-18, 02:00

View Postnullve, on 2021-February-18, 01:15, said:

Why? / How do you define 'solid suit'?

A solid suit has at least the AKQ, and if that suit is trump, whoever bids keycard already knows about the KQ...provided that heís looking at it or his partner has announced it

Fo me, a 6 card suit should be headed by AKQJ and a 7 card suit ideally by AKQ10xxx or better, but one can be a little flexible when dealing with a 7 card suit. AKQ10xx would not be acceptable, at least to me.
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#8 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-February-18, 15:42

Actually, a non-gf 2/1 makes it easier, I guess

1D-2C
3D-4NT (5KBW for D, planning to convert to NT, letís check how good your D are to cover my losers)
5C (3) - 5H (is Mummy here?)
5NT (yes, no mentionnable stuff like a K or a longer suit) - ?

And now you are at the cross roads.

D probably come in for 6 tricks, C for 7, provided partner is not void, but 3 sure tricks, and the 3 major tricks. Partner has other HCP too, as only 13 have been accounted for so far, not sufficient for the 3D rebid. HQ, HS maybe?

Overall 7NT sounds like a good bet w/o the risk of choosing the suit where an opp has Jxxx.
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-February-19, 10:05

View Postmikeh, on 2021-February-17, 11:30, said:

So I would suggest

1 2
2 4 This rare second round jump rebid shows slam interest and a long solid suit. It sets trump (always convertible to NT)



We play that in theory, but I think I would avoid it here because I would rather keycard/turbo in the unknown diamonds suit than in the solid clubs suit.

So it would probably go:
1 2
2 4
4 4
5 (odd kc) 5
6 (have Q) 7N
p
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-February-19, 13:24

View Postpescetom, on 2021-February-19, 10:05, said:

We play that in theory, but I think I would avoid it here because I would rather keycard/turbo in the unknown diamonds suit than in the solid clubs suit.

So it would probably go:
1 2
2 4
4 4
5 (odd kc) 5
6 (have Q) 7N
p


As I mentioned in my first post, the auction 1D 2C is a theoretical quagmire.

What does 2M show? Can one bid it with 4M 4D? Does it show any extras?

What does 2N show? Does it promise at least 2 clubs? Does it promise at least some values in both majors?

What does 3C show? How many clubs and what strength of hand?

One needs to have a clear, coherent scheme for each of these questions before turning to what would seem the most basic question of all, but which is actually quite complex: what does 2D show?

As an illustration, my view, which is not mainstream but not completely idiosyncratic either, is that 2D is the default bid, with length as short as 4.

The reasoning is that:

2M shows at least 5 diamonds, a 4 card major (or 5=6, etc) and about a King more than a minimum opening. With that shape and a minimum, bid 2D, knowing that responder will bid 2M if he has a 4 card major.

2N promises at least 2 clubs and some values...at least arguably offering semi-stoppers or better in the majors, with a hand out of range for an opening 1N

3C promises 4 card support, and either distributional values or modest extra hcp.

All of this is designed to maximize efficiency in:

Exploring major suit or diamond slams, by letting responder know that 2M shows extrasa and at least 4=5

Right-siding notrump contracts

Ensuring that we don't go off looking for a club slam when opener has minimal values, lacks good shape, but has some clubs

Obviously there is a cost to this approach in that responder has little clue about opener's diamond length.

In my current most serious of two partnerships, 1D is often 5+...we open 1C with, say, 4342/3442, so the ambiguity is a little less...we will more often have 5+ diamonds for a 2D rebid than would standard bidders.

All of this means that I'd be reluctant to set diamonds as trump. Yes, on this hand (because opener has a huge hand himself) we will end up in notrump and partner will never be able to override our choice. But we can't know that at the time he bids 2D.

He might have, for example, xx AQx AKxxxx xx where 7C is pretty good but even 6D is in peril and is down on most 4-1 trump breaks, and 7N requires a heart finesse (there is no squeeze except against east, and if the squeeze works, so does the heart hook).

Now, one could argue that opener has no rights if we set diamonds, take control and then bid 7C but I'd be worried about putting partner into that position. And, once I have set diamonds as trump, would 6C even be recognized as an attempt to play 6C or would it be seen as some kind of probe for grand?

I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with setting diamonds and then hoping he will pass when I rebid my clubs for the first time at slam or grand, even with my two most frequent partners, and I don't see why we need risk it, all to avoid bidding 4C over 2D.

Note that I don't need the diamond Queen to make 7C so long as he has an entry after I've drawn trump and then ruffed out the diamonds..even if he has xxx Axx AKxxxx they have to lead a heart, if both minors are 3-2.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-February-19, 16:42

View Postmikeh, on 2021-February-19, 13:24, said:

As I mentioned in my first post, the auction 1D 2C is a theoretical quagmire.

What does 2M show? Can one bid it with 4M 4D? Does it show any extras?

What does 2N show? Does it promise at least 2 clubs? Does it promise at least some values in both majors?

What does 3C show? How many clubs and what strength of hand?

One needs to have a clear, coherent scheme for each of these questions before turning to what would seem the most basic question of all, but which is actually quite complex: what does 2D show?

As an illustration, my view, which is not mainstream but not completely idiosyncratic either, is that 2D is the default bid, with length as short as 4.

The reasoning is that:

2M shows at least 5 diamonds, a 4 card major (or 5=6, etc) and about a King more than a minimum opening. With that shape and a minimum, bid 2D, knowing that responder will bid 2M if he has a 4 card major.

2N promises at least 2 clubs and some values...at least arguably offering semi-stoppers or better in the majors, with a hand out of range for an opening 1N

3C promises 4 card support, and either distributional values or modest extra hcp.

In our system, the 1 opening is 4+. After a 2 response which is GF and semi-artificial:
2M is 11-21 with 4 cards and does not promise extras (yes I know, but we need the eggs)
2N is 12-14 and prepared to play NT, arguably offering semi-stoppers
3 is 4 card support and either distributional values or at least modest extra hcp.

By consequence, the 2 rebid is fairly well defined and 5+ cards. Then 3 by responder shows a 3-card raise without denying interest in 3NT, 4 shows a nominal raise which fixes trumps at least temporarily and asks for a control-bid.

View Postmikeh, on 2021-February-19, 13:24, said:

Now, one could argue that opener has no rights if we set diamonds, take control and then bid 7C but I'd be worried about putting partner into that position. And, once I have set diamonds as trump, would 6C even be recognized as an attempt to play 6C or would it be seen as some kind of probe for grand?

I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with setting diamonds and then hoping he will pass when I rebid my clubs for the first time at slam or grand, even with my two most frequent partners.

I think that this is mainly a question of partnership meta-rules. For us it is clear that responder has not sworn in blood to place the final contract in diamonds, but also that opener has no right to attempt to play in clubs once trumps are fixed in diamonds (6 would be interpreted as whatever it means within the diamonds control-bid sequence, or a desire to pay the beer). Responder has a right to correct to a final contract in clubs, but he has to do it with an unambiguous jump. Both can correct a clear proposal of a suit contract to NT if in possession of sufficient information and convinced.

View Postmikeh, on 2021-February-19, 13:24, said:

all to avoid bidding 4C over 2D.

All to find out about Q, rather than just guess or take more risks in the apparently inferior (particularly if MP) contract of 7.
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#12 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-February-20, 06:35

Possible "Norwegian" 2/1 auction similar to the one mikeh suggested:

1(1)-2(2)
2(3)-4(4)
4(5)-4N(6)
5(7)-5N(8)
7N(11)-P

(1) NAT (e.g. 5542-style)
(2) NAT, "GF unless rebid"
(3) 5+D3-C. Not 4(+) M unless MIN.
(4) sets C as trumps (without promising a solid suit in mikeh's sense), slammish
(5) cue
(6) RKC
(9) 2 (or 5) key cards, no trump Q
(10) specific king ask, grand slam interest
(11) contract
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#13 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2022-February-14, 17:57

in a bidding challenge

https://bridge.downa...=1DP1HP1NP2CP2N

1D--1H (4D unb, at least 3H or GF)
1Nt-2C (4H min or any 6D--- at least 9pts)
2NT--3C (sing !C 15+ rkc D)
3H---3S (3/0---!DQ ?)
4C---4S (yes but no !HK bypassing !SK/!HQ)
5C---7Nt (yes but no !DJ)

Asking for !SQ is stupid, so proper bid is 4Nt not 4S with a 7th !D or !DJ we would play 7D probably.



iRL

1D---1H
1NT---3C solid clubs ...



here are our responses over 2C...


??

6D min
5D+4H min
6D 15+ no sing
2Nt sing !D (3361) or 7 card !D
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#14 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2022-February-14, 18:01

View Postbenlessard, on 2022-February-14, 17:57, said:

in a bidding challenge

https://bridge.downa...=1DP1HP1NP2CP2N

1D--1H (4D unb, at least 3H or GF)
1Nt-2C (4H min or any 6D--- at least 9pts)
2NT--3C (sing !C 15+ rkc D)
3H---3S (3/0---!DQ ?)
4C---4S (yes but no !HK bypassing !SK/!HQ)
5C---7Nt (yes but no !DJ)

iRL

1D---1H
1NT---3C solid clubs ...

I remember having a very similar auction. partner had a strong 3361 and I had solid clubs and I did check for the !DJ to make sure that 7D wasnt better than 7Nt. in case or clubs break 4-1.

here are our responses over 2C...


??

6D min
5D+4H min
6D 15+ no sing
2Nt sing !D (3361) or 7 card !D

From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#15 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-February-15, 03:39

I can't imagine rebidding just 2 with this hand. If a 3NT rebid doesn't show this hand (short in partner's suit, stoppers elsewhere, long solid diamonds) then at least we can rebid 3.

Either way, North now asks for keycards for diamonds and we are home.
This whole 'my partner paused so now I must trash the hand' attitude never worked for me --- DavidKok
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