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1NT stayman for NT with 5 card majors

#1 User is offline   scotland 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 11:45

Stayman for 5 card major NT
10/11/20


To find a 4.4 or 5.3 major fit after 1NT that may contain a 5 card major.

Following 1NT 2C:
2H/S are four card suits

Pass with garbage Stayman
Raise to 3 of major is invitational
(2S by responder over 2H is invitational or better and 4 card suit in case opener has both majors)(drawback the wrong hand may play the contract)
now 2/3NT are natural by responder,
3C/D are natural 6+ invitational

2D = no 4 card major (possibly a 5 card major)

Pass with garbage Stayman
2H is 3+S looking for 3/4S rather than 2/3NT if opener has a 5 card S suit
2S is 3+H looking for 3/4H rather than 2/3NT if opener has a 5 card H suit
2NT is 3.3+ in majors invitational,
3NT is 3.3+ in majors game force
3H is 5H and 4S invitational *
3S is 5S and 4H invitational *
3C/D are natural 6+ invitational

garbage hands 4.4.5.0, 4.3.5.1, 3.4.5.1, NOT 4.4.4.1 as you can finish in a 4.2 fit
* invitational hands can be 5.4.?.?, 4.5.?.? even 5.5.?.?
weak 5.4.?.?, 4.5.?.? just transfer to 5 card (drawback not as good as via traditional stayman)

If responder has no interst in majors must have a least 9 cards in minors
thus: 2NT is invitational (shape as with g/f bids below but not 6+ C or D)
3C is 6+D g/f
3D is 6+C g/f
3H is 5C and 4D g/f
3S is 5D and 4C g/f
3NT is 5.5 in C and D g/f


comments please
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#2 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 13:42

What are the HCP. ranges for opener and responder?
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; Schämen sich Roboter, wenn sie lügen?
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#3 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 14:03

These seems...really bad. Just absolutely roadmapping the defense.

This is really a solved problem... play a 3c puppet, problem solved, and it doesn't reveal anything about responder's hand.
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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 14:12

Sorry but not a big fan.

Seems to reveal a lot.

When partner garbages and you bid 2D, you could be in a 5-2 fit with a 5-4 or 5-4 available, in a better scoring suit.

Follow-ups over 3C/3D unclear. GF hands with m who bother to show m is because they have a singleton or slam aspirations. Seems hard to convey that after 3D especially.

The only positive is you find some fits but at a higher cost. A puppet at 3C (GF Stayman for 5 and 4 cM), or a « I don’t wanna find the 53 » will be easier and less revealing, I think.
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 18:29

View Postapollo1201, on 2020-November-10, 14:12, said:

Sorry but not a big fan.

Seems to reveal a lot.

When partner garbages and you bid 2D, you could be in a 5-2 fit with a 5-4 or 5-4 available, in a better scoring suit.


Yes, this method doesn’t allow you to bid garbage Stayman with both majors and not diamonds,
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#6 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 18:58

Interesting, but I prefer
  • 2 = ASK Garbage Stayman.
  • 2/2/2/2N = TFR 5+ ///.
  • 3 = ASK Muppet Stayman.
  • 3 = ART. Short m. Then 3 = ASK. (3 = 4414 or 4405, 3N = 4441 or 4450).
  • 3 = SPL 4144 or 40(54).
  • 3 = SPL 1444 or 04(54).

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#7 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 20:11

View Postnige1, on 2020-November-10, 18:58, said:

  • 3 = ASK Muppet Stayman.
  • 3 = SPL 4144 or 40(54).
  • 3 = SPL 1444 or 04(54).



How does Muppet Stayman work over a 1N opening?

That is, the normal Puppet response to 3C is 3D to deny a five card major but say nothing about 4 card majors (unlike a 2NT - 3C sequence); one of the main benefits of Puppet is to avoid telling the opponents about opener's four card majors and there's never a need to (responder will either show his 4 card major next, or would have bid regular Stayman to begin with). So there aren't two bids to 'swap' like over a 2N opener.

Also, is there a reason you prefer (14)44 splinters to (13)(54) which appear to be more common? Are you putting those through Puppet instead?
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#8 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 21:11

View PostTylerE, on 2020-November-10, 14:03, said:

These seems...really bad. Just absolutely roadmapping the defense.

This is really a solved problem... play a 3c puppet, problem solved, and it doesn't reveal anything about responder's hand.

It's only solved if you don't have anything better to do with 3C, and I suspect most structures that could benefit from an extra bid to play with.
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#9 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 23:25

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-November-10, 20:11, said:

How does Muppet Stayman work over a 1N opening?

That is, the normal Puppet response to 3C is 3D to deny a five card major but say nothing about 4 card majors (unlike a 2NT - 3C sequence); one of the main benefits of Puppet is to avoid telling the opponents about opener's four card majors and there's never a need to (responder will either show his 4 card major next, or would have bid regular Stayman to begin with). So there aren't two bids to 'swap' like over a 2N opener.

Also, is there a reason you prefer (14)44 splinters to (13)(54) which appear to be more common? Are you putting those through Puppet instead?

Good points, SMerriman. I do play 1N - 3 = Puppet with some partners. I agree that Muppet leaks information. However I like Muppet over a 2N opener so for me it has the advantage of consistency. I understand your argument about the other bids too.
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#10 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2020-November-10, 23:36

View Postnige1, on 2020-November-10, 23:25, said:

Good points, SMerriman. I do play 1N - 3 = Puppet with some partners. I agree that Muppet leaks information. However I like Muppet over a 2N opener so for me it has the advantage of consistency.

I get the drive for consistency - it makes life much easier. However, IMO the information leakage is big enough that any serious partnership needs to give up on it in this particular area. It's much easier defending 3NT when you know declarer has a four-card major. If you know which one, it's even better. Hiding that information has helped me many times as declarer.
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#11 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-November-11, 02:32

View Postnige1, on 2020-November-10, 18:58, said:

Interesting, but I prefer
  • 2 = ASK Garbage Stayman.
  • 2/2/2/2N = TFR 5+ ///.
  • 3 = ASK Muppet Stayman.
  • 3 = ART. Short m. Then 3 = ASK. (3 = 4414 or 4405, 3N = 4441 or 4450).
  • 3 = SPL 4144 or 40(54).
  • 3 = SPL 1444 or 04(54).


Looks better and keeps the « super acceptance » in minors. With the debate over puppet / muppet (idk the latter one, though).
But the trade off for that is often that you have to go to Stayman with the natural 2NT invite. Which leaks a lot of info. Or make 2S a two-way bid, C or 8-9 bal (over 15-17) w/o majors.
What solution did you chose, and why?
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-November-13, 10:52

View PostTylerE, on 2020-November-10, 14:03, said:

These seems...really bad. Just absolutely roadmapping the defense.

This is really a solved problem... play a 3c puppet, problem solved, and it doesn't reveal anything about responder's hand.

Or 2 Puppet, which matches the design goals better and has a bigger upside compared to the OP.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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