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slam bidding

#1 User is offline   tendol 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 19:54

Here is a link to a hand I played

https://tinyurl.com/y4ren22x

I was south and opened 1 spade. 2 NT was jacoby 2nt. I bid 3 H. How should the bidding go after that so that we can reach a slam?
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 20:27

I don't really see an auction that gets to slam and DOESN'T also get there on a lot of hands that don't have a prayer.

That said, I would splinter with the N hand. J2NT should be reserved for hands that are either balanced or so strong they are driving to at least 6 opposite a balanced minimum.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 20:44

View Posttendol, on 2020-October-26, 19:54, said:

Here is a link to a hand I played

https://tinyurl.com/y4ren22x

I was south and opened 1 spade. 2 NT was jacoby 2nt. I bid 3 H. How should the bidding go after that so that we can reach a slam?

What one should respond with the north hand, after south opens 1S, is a controversial topic.

The three choices, in my view ranked in descending order, are 2D (if playing 2/1 GF, but not otherwise), 2N jacoby (unless not playing 2/1, in which case I rank 2N as best) and the splinter in clubs, which I rate a distant third.

My reasoning for 2D works extremely well on hands like these, where opener has a great holding in diamonds.

How the auction proceeds depends on agreements, but for me, opener rebids 2S, over which responder now splinters. South should drive to slam, which is okay but hardly cold. He can do this because going out of one’s way to show diamonds, when holding the 4 trump promised by the splinter (if, as we do, 2S doesn’t promise 6), shows a good suit, as a potential source of tricks. I wouldn’t respond 2D with, say, Axxxx in the suit.

After jacoby, again it depends on agreements. Standard jacoby 2N employs 3H to show shortness. Personally, Ii would bid 3S as north, to allow opener to show or deny slam interest. As it happens, south is full values for a 4C cue-bid, over which responder cooperates with 4D. I think bidding 4D over 3H is an error, since it makes it impossible to show or deny a club control below game. A good principle is, that in a forcing auction, consider making cheap bids if doing so will help partner tell you something useful.

Opener might now take charge over 4D or indicate that he has only moderate interest via 4S.

I don’t feel strongly about slam here. There may well be a spade loser, so missing Qxxx and a keycard, many pairs would stay out of slam. I assume it made, hence the post. However, it is an easy but dangerous trap to assume that one should always bid borderline slams when they happen to make. I suspect I’d be in slam most times, with my two regular partners, but I’d not be worried if we missed it.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#4 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 20:54

View PostTylerE, on 2020-October-26, 20:27, said:

J2NT should be reserved for hands that are either balanced or so strong they are driving to at least 6 opposite a balanced minimum.

Driving to at least 6 opposite a balanced minimum?! That doesn't make any sense. A splinter has to be very limited, so if you're not bidding J2NT with slightly stronger unbalanced hands, what exactly are you bidding? Always a new suit then delayed support? That's taking far too much out of the J2NT bid.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 03:39

It's not a great slam, give N Qxxx and it is and we get there. Why the difference ? well the hand would then qualify for 1-3 by our methods.
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#6 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 04:01

Is the North hand suitable for a fit jump? If so, South then knows all the HCP are working with a double fit and controls in hearts and clubs, so can start cue bidding.

I suppose my question is what is the minimum strength hand for a fit jump?
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 04:12

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-27, 04:01, said:

Is the North hand suitable for a fit jump? If so, South then knows all the HCP are working with a double fit and controls in hearts and clubs, so can start cue bidding.

I suppose my question is what is the minimum strength hand for a fit jump?


For us, enough to game force, suit bid 5 to 3 of the top 5 (but not QJ10), or AK, trumps at least 4 to the Q.
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#8 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 04:22

The only auction which I can imagine leading to this OK-ish slam is the one Mikeh sees, and I’m quite happy because his opinions are always extremely well elaborated yet simply explained.

The N hand has 2 interesting features. A D suit worth mentioning and a side singleton combined with good trump support, with on overall limited strength that can’t drive alone to slam. Not sure you can convey this after a Jacoby, where the aim is to have opener develop their hand, while here we badly want to do that rather than him.

So starting with 2D, planning to splinter over the expected 2S or 2NT, seems a good way to say « we can envision slam if we miraculously fit, I have good D, 4 trumps and C shortage in a small opening hand, up 2U now ».

Seeing DQ, good trump honors and Axxx C in their hand, opener can hardly have a more suitable hand. See after that if he wants to be in it when discovering SQ and an ace are missing. Knowing you have 9 trumps make it safer.
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#9 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 06:02

North bids 2 better than 2NT. Because North can control contract and will be either 4 or 6/7. 2NT just wastes space. Jacoby 2Nt is overrated with 2/1
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#10 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 09:45

tendol ' I was south and opened 1 spade. 2 NT was jacoby 2nt. I bid 3 H. How should the bidding go after that so that we can reach a slam?
++++++++++++++++++++
Over 1, I prefer a 4 splinter to 2N or 2. MikeH rates 4 a distant 3rd :(
Over 2N, presumably, South's 3 showed a shortage. IMO, if the partnership employ Italian cue-bids, North did well to cue-bid 4 rather than 4. North judged well to cue-bid, at all, with so much wasted in s. Anyway, after North's cue-bid, South might drive to slam, with RKC.

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#11 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 12:05

View Postnige1, on 2020-October-27, 09:45, said:

tendol ' I was south and opened 1 spade. 2 NT was jacoby 2nt. I bid 3 H. How should the bidding go after that so that we can reach a slam?
++++++++++++++++++++
Over 1, I prefer a 4 splinter to 2N or 2. MikeH rates 4 a distant 3rd :(
Over 2N, presumably, South's 3 showed a shortage. IMO, if the partnership employ Italian cue-bids, North did well to cue-bid 4 rather than 4. North judged well to cue-bid, at all, with so much wasted in s. Anyway, after North's cue-bid, South might drive to slam, with RKC.


I should, perhaps, elaborate on why I dislike the splinter.

If one were simply counting hcp, then the hand qualifies. A common style for splintering is a hand of roughly 11-12 hcp (opposite a ‘standard’ modern style opening’), with 4 trump and a stiff. So far, so good.

But this hand is far too good for that. Were I Jxxx KQx AJxxx x, I’d splinter. Partner would love red suit honours...picture AKxxxx Ax Kx xxx. Of course, any of the plausible approaches would get to slam, opposite this hand, with the actual responding hand of 10xxx KJx AK10xx x.

However, my diamond suit is too strong. It offers decent chances to generate a lot of tricks. Plus, over a 4C call, partner won’t upgrade the diamond Queen appropriately.

Now, the spade weakness does militate against taking an aggressive line as north, so maybe I denigrated the splinter a little more than I might have, but I still see the north hand as too strong for the splinter.
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#12 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 16:35

2/1 was created for this hand. 2D sets the stage to reach slamif one is there. 4C is OK but IMO exaggerates the hand strength.
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#13 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2020-December-23, 03:50

View Postnige1, on 2020-October-27, 09:45, said:

tendol ' I was south and opened 1 spade. 2 NT was jacoby 2nt. I bid 3 H. How should the bidding go after that so that we can reach a slam?
++++++++++++++++++++
Over 1, I prefer a 4 splinter to 2N or 2. MikeH rates 4 a distant 3rd :(
Over 2N, presumably, South's 3 showed a shortage. IMO, if the partnership employ Italian cue-bids, North did well to cue-bid 4 rather than 4. North judged well to cue-bid, at all, with so much wasted in s. Anyway, after North's cue-bid, South might drive to slam, with RKC.



With 2NTJ meaning unbalanced (as i talked) we know about A and via RKB of K too. Is also the N hand read with Q of trump (that infact is dropped) and with a stiff in club and an high honor in .(Lovera)
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#14 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-December-28, 02:59

My inclination was not to push for slam ....

... but FYI Qplus using 2/1 stopped in 5 spades (after 2D GF) and using Standard Acol reached 6 spades (after 2D)


EDIT But I'm a very ordinary player so checking a Sim

After the 4Diamond bid

If its an Ace then chance of 6S is approx 64%
If its a void then chance of 6S is approx 98%

APologies for errors so I should at least have tried

EDIT ... but if you combine chances of void or Ace of diamonds its only aroound 58% or so, so ......

But as North I think I would only have considered the 2D bid, I often forget about splinters even when available
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