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Lebensohl Very low on your list of priorities

#1 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-October-18, 02:27

I was always attracted to Lebensohl principally because the name sounded like some romantic German Opera. I imagined the Queen of the night singing O zittre nicht mein Lebensohl.
Unfortunately, it's taken until tonight for the robots to teach it to me. Did I get it right, or did they get it wrong?
Here's the hand (from a practice table in the prime area IMP's scoring):

and before you peek - what do think EW have for their bids?

non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; N'écris jamais une lettre et n'en détruis jamais une.
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#2 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-October-18, 02:42

You use Lebensohl with a weak or more extreme shape. So it was not the good day to use it.

With a non descript balanced GF, which you have, and where 5m seems a long way, you just blast 3NT hoping partner stops M, or one and they miss the lead. Or you can cue 2M at your own risk (will ease the lead).

Although here:
- E shouldn’t miss the lead against 3NT
- 5m seems to be making
- you don’t have M stoppers to cue
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-October-18, 04:10

View Postapollo1201, on 2020-October-18, 02:42, said:

You use Lebensohl with a weak or more extreme shape. So it was not the good day to use it.

With a non descript balanced GF, which you have, and where 5m seems a long way, you just blast 3NT hoping partner stops M, or one and they miss the lead. Or you can cue 2M at your own risk (will ease the lead).

Although here:
- E shouldn’t miss the lead against 3NT
- 5m seems to be making
- you don’t have M stoppers to cue


Over a natural intervention, one of 2N followed by 3N and a direct 3N says I want to bid 3N and have a stop in their suit, the other is used without a stop.

It's less clear how this relates to two suited bids where the suits are known, one scheme would to be to treat 2N/3N the same with regard to both suits, so here you stop neither so you would do whichever one of those is agreed to show no stop, and use 3M (or 2N->3M) to say "I stop that suit but not the other".

I don't know how GIB does this.
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#4 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2020-October-18, 04:33

I don't understand East showing the hand as two-suited. Either pass/double and get ready to lead a spade or bid 4S.
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-18, 06:17

View Postapollo1201, on 2020-October-18, 02:42, said:

You use Lebensohl with a weak or more extreme shape. So it was not the good day to use it.

With a non descript balanced GF, which you have, and where 5m seems a long way, you just blast 3NT hoping partner stops M, or one and they miss the lead. Or you can cue 2M at your own risk (will ease the lead).

Although here:
- E shouldn’t miss the lead against 3NT
- 5m seems to be making
- you don’t have M stoppers to cue


You could just bid a natural GF 3 and see what happens.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#6 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2020-October-18, 11:42

pilowsky 'I was always attracted to Lebensohl principally because the name sounded like some romantic German Opera. I imagined the Queen of the night singing O zittre nicht mein Lebensohl. Unfortunately, it's taken until tonight for the robots to teach it to me. Did I get it right, or did they get it wrong? Here's the hand (from a practice table in the prime area IMP's scoring): and before you peek - what do think EW have for their bids?'
++++++++++++++++++++
Like Vampyr, over 2 I might bid 3.

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#7 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-October-18, 13:13

Well, turns out GIB on Prime doesn't defend quite as well as you might expect - or I was having a purple patch.
4HW-3 was a pretty good result, but luemmel managed to hit West for 4HxW-3 - there's always someone..., and agfallon found and made 5D, but they had help from gd50.
Others weren't so lucky. The modal result for 3NT was 3NT-3.

The only reason I didn't bid diamonds was that I thought I was too light - I know - sounds unadventurous for me.
Here's the solution
According to double-dummy, GIB bid to the right place, but the score was terrible - "the operation was a success, but the patient died"
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; N'écris jamais une lettre et n'en détruis jamais une.
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-October-18, 14:52

This is a GF hand with diamonds so 3 stands out.

Lebensohl is a weird defense to interventions over 1NT. While right-siding is overrated in uncontested auctions, it becomes important once they interfere. So playing natural after interference but transfers without interference is backwards.

Over their two-suited interference such as this 2 bid it is not so bad, though, as sometimes 2-bidder's partner won't know which of the two suits to lead, and the 2 bidder will often have a singleton so partner has to consider the unbid minor also.

I used to think that Lebensohl after we double their weak two was essential, but to my surprise Maarten Schollaardt posted some articles in IMP where he argues that playing 2NT as natural is perfectly fine, especially over a 2 opening.
As much as I like you guys, you really need to know that this is all complete nonsense --- Pilowsky
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