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Sometimes you feel GiB is like a selfish child

#21 User is offline   jeigh 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 17:20

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-October-21, 16:34, said:

The NMF part was referring to a 2 bid, not a 3 bid. The key is that 2 is a non-forcing bid that could be passed - in fact, swap its third spade for a diamond and it will - so you're never going to be able to force after that. Rebidding diamonds shows extra length, but not extra strength that you've already denied.


Noted, and probably I should have, in spite of my very strong expectations that GIB would misrepresent something else later in the auction. I'm not sure how I can show a good second suit (specifically diamonds) if I've already bid 2C NMF and GIB has re-bid hearts, possibly showing 5 weakish cards in my shortest suit. At some point, I'm going to be showing my diamond length and values at the 4 level in a hand that might have belonged in 3S or 3NT.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NMF is invitational at best, much less game force (opening quality hand opposite an opener.)

I suppose I could have just ignored my 5-card spade suit and bid 2D first. At least I force game, and GIB will keep bidding hearts up to the 8 level thinking I can't really have spades B-) .
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#22 User is offline   jeigh 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 17:24

View Postsfi, on 2020-October-21, 17:25, said:

The other thing to note is that you've never shown 5 spades. The auction 1H-2D is forcing to game, so hands with 4S/5+D start by bidding spades. The auction 1H-1S; 1NT-2D is entirely consistent with a weak hand and four spades and six diamonds, for example.

Even in the auction smerriman is talking about:
1H - 1S
1NT - 2C* (artificial, inv+ hand)
2S (min, 3-card support)

3D still doesn't show a fifth spade. In fact it denies it and shows an invitational hand with longer diamonds.


This is a fair point, of course (and I defer to everyone else here vis. bridge knowledge and particularly, GIB system knowledge.) If I know partner has 3 spades, and can't instead be, say, preferring with 2 weak cards, I don't need to brag about my diamonds and can probably just hammer out 4S.

I would just have trouble believing GIB would support spades with 3 weak cards if I might have made the bid with 4 weak spades.
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#23 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 17:33

View Postjeigh, on 2020-October-22, 17:24, said:

I would just have trouble believing GIB would support spades with 3 weak cards if I might have made the bid with 4 weak spades.

Perhaps Wikipedia will help.

The purpose of NMF is to specifically ask your partner about their major suit holding in order to find out whether they have 3 card support (or, in other situations, 4 card support for the other major).

It's not a case of whether your partner would want to "support" spades or not; they're forced to bid it if they have 3 as it's simply answering your question. This is a super easy convention for a robot - they'll never get it wrong.

(Note as mentioned earlier, the version described there uses both minors as NMF, rather than just 2).
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#24 User is offline   jeigh 

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Posted 2020-October-23, 12:11

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-October-22, 17:33, said:

Perhaps Wikipedia will help.

The purpose of NMF is to specifically ask your partner about their major suit holding in order to find out whether they have 3 card support (or, in other situations, 4 card support for the other major).

[...]

Noted again, and thanks. With not a small amount of dread, I'll try it next time and make note of what happens.

Thanks all, appreciate both the lesson and the conversation. I still can't appreciate GIB much though.
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