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Use "T" for "10"

#1 User is offline   carmelbobc 

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Posted 2020-October-08, 14:47

I have raised this issue before. Using "10" rather than "T" in hand layouts can cause one to think they have a 6-card suit:

76
Q
J8654
J10754

https://u.pcloud.lin...etEuqh2y8TrjvM7

Moreover, the ten is an honor card, and all other honor cards are letters. Yes, the ten can go either way, but T would be so much clearer.

76
Q
J8654
JT754

So much better.

Just because it always has been done that way does not make it better. Curious what others think.

CarmelBobC
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-October-08, 15:17

I agree 100%.
And have raised the same issue many times with no result.
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#3 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-October-08, 16:51

T option/alt 0054 if they are having trouble finding it on the character set table Posted Image
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-October-08, 17:11

I agree but it seems to be a religious dispute whether 10 or T is appropriate. When I took the bridge teacher training in the Netherlands, our mentor was a militant 10ist, and using T during the exam would surely have made me fail.
As much as I like you guys, you really need to know that this is all complete nonsense --- Pilowsky
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#5 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-October-08, 18:52

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-October-08, 17:11, said:

I agree but it seems to be a religious dispute whether 10 or T is appropriate. When I took the bridge teacher training in the Netherlands, our mentor was a militant 10ist, and using T during the exam would surely have made me fail.


Your Teacher might end up with elbow problems if they keep it up... 10ist elbow is very troublesome.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; Schämen sich Roboter, wenn sie lügen?
J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots
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#6 User is offline   rdylan 

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Posted 2020-October-30, 08:56

Couldn't agree more! As a beginner, I've miscounted several hands because of this. Using T would also conform to every book and article I've read on bridge. I guess I've never read anything from the Netherlands.
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-October-30, 11:08

View Postrdylan, on 2020-October-30, 08:56, said:

Using T would also conform to every book and article I've read on bridge. I guess I've never read anything from the Netherlands.

You must have an unusual set of books - all of mine use 10. Still not a good reason to persist, however.
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#8 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-October-30, 11:42

I would really like to have a single-character-width 10 I could use for books and articles.

The problem with 10 is that it throws the length list: I don't know how many times I've seen Q1085 and "seen" a 5-card suit. Especially if it's a vertical hand. Pavlicek's style guide prefers "10", but also insists that if you use it, you space everything: "Q 10 8 5". You still get "longer suit" formatting issues, but it's less likely to be misread.

On the other side of the argument, "T" looks ugly and it's not what's on the cards. I don't disagree with that at all.
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#9 User is offline   scarletv 

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Posted 2020-October-30, 11:52

Can I have a "Z" for Zehn?

...

duck and cover ...
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#10 User is offline   rdylan 

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Posted 2020-October-30, 12:34

View Postscarletv, on 2020-October-30, 11:52, said:

Can I have a "Z" for Zehn?

...

duck and cover ...


Hahaha. I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada and sometimes go across the river to play poker on the Quebec side. Every time I do, the first board that comes out with a face card throws me off for a few seconds (R,D,V vs K,Q,J). Any letter would be better than '10' in my opinion.
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#11 User is offline   rdylan 

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Posted 2020-October-30, 12:38

View Postpescetom, on 2020-October-30, 11:08, said:

You must have an unusual set of books - all of mine use 10. Still not a good reason to persist, however.


Now that you say that, I've gone back and checked and it is a split, and the more authoritative texts seem to use 10, but clearly T is better.
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#12 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-30, 18:03

This is definitely important compared with BBO’s other shortcomings.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-October-31, 06:54

View Postrdylan, on 2020-October-30, 12:34, said:

Hahaha. I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada and sometimes go across the river to play poker on the Quebec side. Every time I do, the first board that comes out with a face card throws me off for a few seconds (R,D,V vs K,Q,J). Any letter would be better than '10' in my opinion.


Italians use R,D,F and Poles K,Q,W (!). I would be quite happy with 'Z' or 'X' or whatever instead of 'T' if the locals so desire.
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#14 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-October-31, 06:56

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-30, 18:03, said:

This is definitely important compared with BBO’s other shortcomings.


Quite difficult to fix too.
And nobody ever asked for it until this year.
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-31, 15:00

View Postpescetom, on 2020-October-31, 06:56, said:

Quite difficult to fix too.
And nobody ever asked for it until this year.


Yes and maybe they could put T on the cards, too. And N instead of 9, E for 8, capital S for 7, lowercase for 6, same with 5 and 4. Lowercase t for 3 and subscript t for 2.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-October-31, 15:30

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-31, 15:00, said:

Yes and maybe they could put T on the cards, too. And N instead of 9, E for 8, capital S for 7, lowercase for 6, same with 5 and 4. Lowercase t for 3 and subscript t for 2.


If phsyical cards are destined to exist (I hope so, although not in competitive bridge) I would be quite happy if the '10' was written T, Z or whatever.
If cards were only for bridge then 9-1 would be more logical in the first place, but I can feel Lamford shuddering and agree that is an affront to history.
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#17 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-31, 23:44

View Postpescetom, on 2020-October-31, 15:30, said:

If phsyical cards are destined to exist (I hope so, although not in competitive bridge) I would be quite happy if the '10' was written T, Z or whatever.
If cards were only for bridge then 9-1 would be more logical in the first place, but I can feel Lamford shuddering and agree that is an affront to history.


I do not think that Lamford cares; he certainly doesn’t “give two hoots”, as he would put it, whether ten is written as T or 10, and neither do I.*

However, using a “1” card would be a bad idea, because if partner is a bit hard of hearing then designating the A as “one” prevents its being confused with 8.

So you don’t hope that cards will be used in competitive bridge? What will people do, continue to play online? I am sure that 99.9% of bridge players will be happy and relieved when we can go back to playing actual bridge instead of the rather poor substitute we have all been forcing to rely on.

*in diagrams it is one thing, but for those of use who prefer pictures of cards it would be bizarre to make the picture not look like the actual card.
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#18 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-November-01, 08:15

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-31, 23:44, said:

I do not think that Lamford cares

I got the idea that he was passionate about the history of card games, that's all.

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-31, 23:44, said:

However, using a “1” card would be a bad idea, because if partner is a bit hard of hearing then designating the A as “one” prevents its being confused with 8.

Fair enough, although any system of denomination is going to have some such problems in most languages.
In Italian, 3 and K are the problem.

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-31, 23:44, said:

So you don’t hope that cards will be used in competitive bridge? What will people do, continue to play online? I am sure that 99.9% of bridge players will be happy and relieved when we can go back to playing actual bridge instead of the rather poor substitute we have all been forcing to rely on.

I don't see a contradiction between the two positions, unless the majority of your play is serious competition. I long ago decided that the future of serious competition is controlled electronic play and the experience of lockdown has only reinforced the conviction that this is both possible and inevitable. Of course the technology, laws and organisational methods are not ready yet, but it's only a question of a few years.
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#19 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-November-01, 11:49

View Postpescetom, on 2020-November-01, 08:15, said:

I got the idea that he was passionate about the history of card games, that's all.


Fair enough, although any system of denomination is going to have some such problems in most languages.
In Italian, 3 and K are the problem.


I don't see a contradiction between the two positions, unless the majority of your play is serious competition. I long ago decided that the future of serious competition is controlled electronic play and the experience of lockdown has only reinforced the conviction that this is both possible and inevitable. Of course the technology, laws and organisational methods are not ready yet, but it's only a question of a few years.


I wouldn’t be so pessimistic if I were you.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#20 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-November-01, 11:50

1RDV is common enough (for example) that Dealer4 software has a setting for that, as well as ARDV.

Cue my partner's story about French players travelling to the Netherlands to play with Dutch cards (AHVB)...

And I definitely go with (I think I heard it first from Probst Elder) "top" vs "eight-spot".
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